Supported by Uber, Ørsted and CEZ Group
A just transition—one that is fair for society and environment—is integral to the pursuit of a low-carbon future. Yet what does this mean in practice for businesses? How can metrics quantify “just”? How are businesses placing the transition into their core culture? How can private capital be mobilised to bridge the gap in funding to achieve related goals, such as energy transition and industry decarbonisation? How can social factors be included in investment strategies?
Moderated by Vijay Vaitheeswaran, global energy and climate innovation editor, The Economist
Speakers
Thibaud Simphal, global head of sustainability, Uber
Anna Murray, global head of sustainable investing, Ontario Teachers Pension Plan
Duncan Clark, head of Ørsted UK & Ireland, Ørsted
Michaela Chaloupková, member of the board of directors, chief officer of administration division and chief sustainability officer, CEZ Group
So adjust energy transition now uh maybe a good place to start is by asking what exactly do we mean by a Just Energy transition um I might I might turn to you Anna as um as someone who uh is a steward in your organization is a
Steward of uh uh quite a lot of resources last I checked $249 billion uh you can correct me if that number is wrong but uh uh a nice nice Treasure Chest but one where you need to be respons for those uh resources for the future how do you think about uh Just
Energy transition what does it mean to you yes thank you and the the 2050 billion Global Investments is correct and that’s on behalf of approximately 340,000 teachers based in Ontario and one thing that’s important to note to level set is that we’re not your typical pension plan in that 80% of our assets
Are actually managed in house and approximately 62% of those are in private markets so for us uh climate change obviously presents an incredibly complex challenge as well as an opportunity we believe that it’s a generational investment opportunity and as such we’re taking a learning approach where we’re trying to be very respectful
Of the challenge that’s ahead and really we have two convictions so for us one climate change is a crisis that needs to be addressed urgently it needs to be addressed now and the second con ition is that the energy transition is inevitable and it’s also far-reaching
And so our approach is based on these convictions where we have both a net zero Target for 2050 with interim targets that we’re well on our way to meet as well as looking at different levers across our investment platform where we can contribute positively to the transition such as investing in
Energy Solutions issuing green bonds investing in transition assets Etc part of this for us is understand understanding that as we move towards investing in the transition we will see increasing links with positive impact and a Hallmark of our approach is around maintaining credibility uh through measurable methodology can you give uh any examples
Or case studies of how you’ve um let’s say modified your investment or stretched where you would go as you think about a a Just Energy transition from what might your organization might have done 20 years ago or 10 years ago right and I think probably a great place
To start would be through our portfolio company example so when it comes to the just transition we’re already seeing this being incorporated as a part of their core culture or their DNA um so of course as an asset owner uh incorporating social Dimensions as part of the Net Zero transition planning is
Critical um it’s been key for many of our portfolio companies to appreciate um how the just transition can mean very different things depending on what asset class they’re investing in or what geography and so case in point example would be actually a local example ssse Scottish uh and Southern electricity
Networks where they were actually one of the first of their kind to publish a just transition report in 2020 it’s based on five principles ranging from the importance of green jobs the importance of engaging Community uh and they are uh actually tracking over 20 of these principles um over time uh to see
How they’re improving on progress as it relates to some of their just transition how do you keep them honest um we’ve talked a little bit about green washing already um the challenge of metrics and you know we’re not there yet uh here you are literally putting your money away
Amount this investing in companies that are making some bold claims uh when we can’t even probably agree on a definition of Just Energy transition how do you have confidence to invest in a company claiming to have a Just Energy transition strategy right well it always
Comes back to data as one of the the original speakers this morning was was po pointing to and we have to maintain again credible approaches through methodology so for us we work with our portfolio companies on sustainability risk and opportunity throughout the entire investment cycle so that includes transparency reporting disclosure but
Also again this meaningful engagement U that is uh a necessary piece of the just transition so understanding that this is an evolving context not one person or one firm has the responses and so it has to be um innovative um and inclusive as we go great thank
You well so that gets us off to a good start um now we’re going to come to a hard case if I may say so Michaela I’m coming to you uh your uh company for those that don’t know you’re you’re a chief sustainability officer but for a
Company that has a lot of coal it’s fair to say right uh integrated all the way back to the coal mine um and so this is a real challenge to talk about Just Energy transition when we talk about uh the most carbon intensive of fuels of
Fossil fuels even uh and one that can’t really play a big part in a a climate friendly future and one where we saw even challenges during the uh you know the energy crisis of a couple of years ago where you were called on to produce more uh from coal resources when the
Russian gas was cut off for energy security reasons so help us understand in that challenging position you’re in what does Just Energy transition mean to you okay uh thank you uh just a brief uh um brief idea of what we are doing uh vertically integrated uh from 70 More
Than 70% owned by state and also we are public uh um our Shares are are public so um and we are in the phase out of closing our power plants and uh hopefully we will close all of them within the 5 years but we have to replace them by by Renewables and we
Have to take care about all employees which are effective uh by closing these power plants and also we have to deal with the communities around the power plants with many of stakeholders uh with our Shell Holders which don’t want uh to close power plants and ngos want to close power
Plants ASAP so uh the our perspective of just transition is to deal with all all of these stakeholders and to address all their needs so it’s very complex problem I don’t think we have enough time to go deeper what just just give us a little bit a little bit more that that’s that’s
A good background for because many people may not be familiar with the company um uh you know the challenge of um uh switching from fossil intensive resources to Renewables as you’re doing is not unique to Poland right of course South Africa faces it very very difficult challenge um many developing
Countries as well um uh and it has been a political issue in Germany for example Co remain subsidized we all know famously or infamously for many years even as they were handing out massive uh subsidies for solar they continue to subsidize coal for political reasons right and um the in the developing
Country context out of the cop Summits there are these Just Energy transition Partnerships where um the G7 countries World Bank other International lenders are trying to help Indonesia Vietnam uh South Africa and other countries try to bridge the gap on financing so that the communities for example where the minors
Are displaced can find meaningful work and so on but it’s it’s proving very difficult sou Africa it hasn’t gone very well uh to be blunt about it we’ll see how it goes in other countries so this is a real challenge um I’m curious in your context uh are you getting
Additional resources uh from the government or uh you know because this is beyond the remit even though you have a government stake you’re still corporate entity uh whereas this is a societal challenge yeah it’s so we have a both we have a uh some we have some uh shareholders from from Minority
As a FS for example or or the uh another investors and they they want something different for us than for example government so uh it’s always like I feel like dancing uh within the X sometimes uh but what we think um uh we have to do
Our best for for envir M for uh for our um I think for communities where we where we uh produce our electricity and power plants so it’s um it’s in we balance somehow and it’s not uh we have some funds from from EU EU but but it’s
Very difficult uh to to take all the money because we are the biggest company in C Republic so we have we we can’t sto the money uh somebody else for example small company so uh we have to earn our own money and to pay the just transition
From our uh pocket from your pocket right you’re dancing with eggs analogy that’ll stick with us from this conference um so okay uh let’s let’s move on to our next speaker and we’ll come back to some of the themes that you’re putting on the table of course uh
Thot I think um you represent Uber yeah I think uh I’m fair in saying that most people in this audience not only know Uber but probably Tak an Ubers um just a show fans how many of you have have taken Uber in the past all right almost
Everyone keep your hands up how many of you think Uber is an example of sustainability hands up okay I’m setting you up here I know I know it’s a little unfair a little unfair but you didn’t come to us to conference you’re the head of sustainability and I say this as a
Someone who loves Ubers I take them all over the world fantastic even in Shanghai when you guys came you changed my life it was fantastic great service we spoke before so but I do have you challenge me every time I like it I I have some questions for you can you make
The case for how Uber is part of the sustainability solution and what are the issues you grapple with sure thank you for your constant uh pushes and challenges we appreciate it and you know you talked about it a little bit like if you want to be a leader in something
It’s not going to be easy so we appreciate this is hard um so I mean look there’s uh nearly 6 million drivers on the platform we Opera in 70 countries um we’ve made a decision to be really bold on sustainability because we think it’s it’s it’s Mission critical it’s
Actually business critical as I think some of the speakers before have said um climate change is not going to go away and yes we have a moment right now with Wars with energy crisis High interest rates Etc but that is going to go away at least I’m optimistic by Nature so I
Think that’s going to go away uh climate CL change is not going to go away and it will remain at the top of the agenda of politicians and consumers so for us as a business we see sustainability as a way to attract consumers of today like gen Z
Today we know that they’re already making purchasing decisions based on whether or not a product is seen as green uh but also gener future consumers we also see risk let’s be honest and I think some of uh you and some of the previous speakers have talked about it
We see this as a way to drisk the business there’s going to be increasing there’s already but there’s going to be increasing regulatory pressure on companies like us to comply with a lot of Standards if we don’t start investing early and a lot we’re just not going to
Be able to be future proof so we want to be a leader and we want to be the cleanest platform on Earth um let’s what are you doing about it and so yeah I was coming to that like what we’ve done about it is we’ve set some really
Ambitious targets we want to be for the Mobility side of our business uh zero emissions in US Canada and Europe by 2030 and across the platform by 2040 uh we’ve decided to invest $800 million in different forms of incentives for drivers to get discounts on cars for
Example so in place like London if you drive on the platform you can accumulate funds and you can get up to £10,000 towards buying an electric car um we went from a few zero emission Vehicles that’s that’s vehicles and mostly it’s EVS at the moment but that’s
It’s mostly EVS yeah and we’ve gone from a few hundreds uh of of EVS on the platform to 125,000 Vehicles today um and we want to sort of go to 100% in in all of those cities by 2030 and in some uh European capitals we want to be 50% electric zero
Emissions by 2025 so that’s what we’re doing about it we’re investing setting ambitious targets we’re also disclosing our progress as I I think think um we were saying earlier companies disclosing their progress towards their targets is really important to create the confidence with investors we think that for some investors climate is becoming
Really important we get an increasing number of investors that are asking us about our dcfd rate uh rating about our whether our targets say sbti approved so we’re public we have all of that and we’re also publishing our progress you are sbti uh our targets are sbti
Approved and we’re we got a B rating on tcfd uh which you know was a few years ago when you challenged me we were a d so now we’re a b so we’re we’re we’re getting there um so that’s what we’re doing about it uh but what we’re seeing
Is that there are number of obstacles that Uber alone cannot address um climate we we we like to say climate is a team sport and we can invest a lot of our money dilute some of our margins but what we need right now is to tackle two
Obstacles in this transition for it to be just um the first thing is EVS are still not as affordable as so electric cars are still not as affordable as gas powered cars there’s still a gap it depends by country Etc what we need is governments to really signal that
They’re going to end gas powerered cars at some point country like Norway has said that by 20125 they will ban all gas powered cars sure uh that’s a great example we’re not asking everyone to be like Norway but it’s certainly inspirational um we need incentives and subsidies by governments to help us
We’re we’re also putting our own dollar and there euros and pounds but we also need governments to incentivize the transition to uh electric cars by giving them subsidies to acquire an EV and then the other thing that we’re hearing by from all drivers which makes the transition at the moment not being fully
Just is that a lot of drivers live in neighborhoods where uh they don’t have access to charging right and so we need uh grid grid companies we need energy companies uh cities to work together and charging operators to make Chargers available in areas where high mileage drivers live because drivers on Uber and
High mileage drivers in general they bring you four times the benefit when they when they move to electric cars they bring you four times the benefit that you and me moving to an electric car bring because they drive much more sure um and so the petol replaced uh is
The is the thing to watch right exactly and so if we focus on them if we focus on the neighborhoods where they live it’s going to deliver an outsize impact for every dollar invested and so we really encourage um all of our stakeholders automakers governments municipalities to have more affordable
Models incentivize subsidize the acquisition of these models and then making charging more accessible and more affordable what are you finding from uh consumers I I noticed the Uber green tab appears on my app great um but uh sometimes they’re just hybrids that are running on petrol sometimes they’re beat
Up old cars you know it’s not a great consumer experience I have to tell you at least in New York City where I live um but and generally speaking the pricing is at a premium I’ve noticed what what what is the general response from your uh customer base are they
Willing to pay a premium are they appreciative of this product or is it something that’s a work in progress so that’s what you what you’re talking about um in terms of you have to pay a premium to get a Greener product on on our app is something that we’ve changed
Our Global approach on and now trying to have a global approach where in every city if you have a more sustainable product which is hybrids and EVS you’re going to pay the same price and in some cases like in Paris you’re paying a little bit less um that’s something
We’re going to try and hold on to uh because we think that indeed at the moment consumers are probably not willing to pay a price premium on a more sustainable product what we see though is that they are willing from our research they’re willing to pay a Time
Premium so if you have to wait a little bit for your Greener car to show up a number of consumer segments are actually willing to pay for that with time they’ll be like I’m going to wait for my green car a little bit more but
That’s fine because I want to get into a green car and what we’re increasingly seeing from uh genz and younger segments of of our Riders In general we’ve got like close to 200 million Riders around the world is that they’re starting to actually say I’m going to make a
Purchasing decision based on whether or not the product is green so the the the trade for us is well first we have to have them at the same price but if we don’t have that Greener product which to address your concern will be increasingly EV only but that will take
That will take a while for now we we need hybrids as well um we need we need them to be at the same price and we need them to come uh as soon as possible but consumers are still willing to make that tradeoff with time at the moment so okay
There there’s that we we can feel that this is evolving and definitely not going the like I said the climate uh change challenge is not going away if anything the consumers of today are probably going to be sort of way more presented uh tomorrow um so when the inflation high high interest rate
Inflation cost of Crisis is gone we expect that to be even more prevalent among writers I can see they’re keeping you busy over there so uh thank you for filling Us in on some of the progress um Duncan welcome uh you have a little bit of an easier ride on the Just Energy
Transition as since uh the product you make I think um is one that may be uh more readily acknowledged to be part of sustainability but even then there are challenges can you tell us a little bit about your perspective from orad and how you see wind fitting in and what might
Be the challenges you’d like to take on yeah thank you and maybe it hasn’t always felt easy um well especially with interest rates the way they are now I know there have been some setbacks as well from financial markets yeah I mean we we come at this from the from the perspective that
Um you know adjust and energ transition is one that we pursue as fast as we can and as fully as we can because the counterfactual is something that is in insanely unjust you know and and I guess as a company we come at this from a point of view that we reached a
Realization more than 10 years ago that actually our future our business opportunity our growth was was not going to exist without a pivot to sustainability and that’s the pivot we’ve made we’ve transformed ourselves from a heavily fossil utility to one entirely focused on Green Solutions on green production green
Primary production a world leader in offshore wind um so for us this transition is about changing the Technologies which we get our get our energy and and doing that as fast as possible it means that the new energy infrastructure is in slightly different places and it’s a different character
Than the old energy infrastructure that means we have to work with those communities that are going to be hosting that infrastructure it’s incredibly important to get the jobs and the skills that we need to deliver this and that means working with the energy industry as it is many of our colleagues are moving
From the the Legacy Energy Systems the coal the oil and gas uh and we need to train and upskill the workforces we need to work with the communities that we work we need to address all the stakeholders that are part of the new picture whether those
Are um in the case of offshore wind the fishing communities uh in in the case of offshore wind gain uh you know the the the onshore communities that will be hosting the new grid infrastructure that brings that energy to to where the demand is and and we have to bring those
Communities with us as part of the transition and in doing that it’s a job we have to do hand inand with with governments can we focus on that just a little bit because that we we spoke about this yesterday and there a couple of different panels um there has there
Is a significant nimi problem uh that Renewables face onshore wind more so than offshore but you know as we all know in the offshore the kennedies don’t like their view obstructed right infamously and have blocked wind projects um despite their liberal Tendencies and so there can be nism
Offshore as well uh other than talking about bringing the communities along what actually works what has worked in your experience as a global company now in um getting communities on board that might have been suspicious or reluctant or hostile is it tangibly showing them benefits free power for a decade I mean
You know how how extreme does one need to go that’s definitely part of it you know I think working with those communities understanding them it’s a long game engaging over time being in those communities and part of it and and we’ve got excellent examples where the right thing
Has been uh if you like investment in that Community local jobs um you know we we’ve got examples where we establish you know Community benefit funds which are then an important part of upgrading local community experiences and and in the example of Grimsby in the in the nor north of England around around
The Humber there’s a community that’s been through its own transition a transition where the fishing industry on which it depended you know disappeared almost overnight and and so you have a deprived Coastal Community for which the new Energy Solutions are an absolute opportunity an opportunity for regenerating a community and saving a
Community both through employment economic engagement more more generally and and infrastructure investment so you know this is more about opportunity we the same Republic we do the same thing to work in inclusively with these communities to to hear their voice and uh they have to be
The part of the discussion and uh to have a CH possibility to be within the decision so to involve them this is the this is the what we can do and I think it works it has you’ve seen some success with it yeah definitely yeah definitely
Did you want to jump in yeah I I appreciate what Duncan’s uh using as an example there and so a few things that we know of is you know consideration of just transition in terms of a risk mitigation lens as well as a value creation lens um and then the importance
Of engaging with the community and I think one case and point example that we’ve seen uh is with Mahindra one of our portfolio companies based in India uh they’re a Renewables energy platform and they’ve actually set up um a training center of excellence to help onboard over now 10 10,000 technicians
For the renewable energies uh sector so that’s a a very strong example that we’ve been very impressed by that I think education Skilling job opportunities are part of that Justice component of the transition absolutely and and viewing reskilling as as truly a a competitive Advantage if if uh used
Properly right that’s great I want to come to the audience in just a moment so get your questions ready but I think you wanted to jump into them yeah I was just going to add that it’s it’s also very much true for the population of Uber drivers like the quality and
Availability of information to help them make the transition to electric cars for example uh because it’s such a big investment like the investing in a car is the second most expensive assets for for most households uh the way we as Uber provide the right amount of
Information in the app the way we tell them where they can charge at the right time at the right price Etc all of these contributes to the I would call this upscaling because it’s giving them the right information at the right time but also some skills around like building
The mathematics around I’m going to make this transition Etc I I totally agree that this is something that companies in general need to do and Tech allows you to go straight to the consumer in the case of the consumer business um and so we’re using all these communications
Channels to upskill the workforce I think is tremendously important okay great let’s let’s go to the audience uh let’s see a a hand right here uh lady on this aisle thank you um my name is is Christina skyber I’m coming from the cental synchronous leadership my um question is directly to Mika actually
I’m a fellow Eastern European your neighbor in Slovakia and I wondered what your view is on bringing along the some of the older Generations within our region to bring them onto the sustainability agenda more so thank you okay thank you for that question thank you we can bring the microphone to the
Front row for the next question but please you can very quickly uh it’s about the new Technologies Innovations about do new about the new opportunities what to do in our sector uh to uh about new technologies for example uh in products uh which are uh which are bringing the uh savings for custumers
And uh it’s about the AI for example and implementing all these things and uh this is something which is which is very um I think we attract through the this uh uh things the new generation and the young people so it’s not about the old
Call and and about the uh it’s about new things Renewables nuclear as well I think this is very interesting for New Generation and for our technical students and we offer many jobs in in nuclear and in small nuclear reactors as well so new technologies and Innovations here in the front row we
Have a question please identify yourself sir hi I’m I’m shba coming from California in the US and uh great job um moderating the sessions um learning a lot I have a particular question with respect to electric vehicles for Fleet operations and some something that you already touched on um going back to the
Experience that we you talked about like in Norway I think I mean we need to acknowledge that the experience in way need not be replicated globally particularly because I mean it has to do with the energy mix of the electrical system um as a as a case in point the US
Energy Mix doesn’t have that amount of hydroelectricity so you may not be driving on uh clean energy so with that in the context with respect to uh the experience in Norway versus the US where do you see how you’re going to make it more affordable and Equitable with
Respect to for anybody to uh adopt I mean uh take a take a uber ride when electricity prices in California are going through the roof yeah very good question I think the the Energy Mix uh for charging cars is really important first because if you have a lot of EVS
On the Uber platform but they’re being charged through coal plants no disrespect uh obviously you’re not exactly helping the environment so that’s something that we’re closely watching obviously it’s not our business uh what we can do is partner with uh GD operators to incentivize them to make
Move to a Greener mix in terms of the price this is something that we hearing from drivers more and more um here in London for example the price to charge on Fast Chargers has gone from a few pens a kilowatt to sometimes up to 70 80 pens a kilowatt which is obviously way
More uh expensive and sometimes on par with what it would be for them to use a gas powered car so what we can do about that is um continue to work with more uh operators so what we’re doing in in the UK is to create competition we’re we’re
Doing deals with BP pulse and we we want to do deals with others so that the competition between them to attract drivers to their charging points will drive the price down and second is to continue to work with governments to make sure that um they uh have pricing regulation
Mechanisms for lowincome households or for high mileage drivers like commercial drivers to protect them from these uh price changes which I think are are fair of their Market based uh but as a as a business operating in in as as a driver on the Uber platform you need some kind
Of guarantees so in some countries what we’re seeing is that the some governments will Target specific populations of professionals giving them price guarantees and and sort of lock in prices for one or two years so these are the things we are doing there certainly
More we can do but um as as Uber this is what we we think we can do you had a a quick comment to follow on we can do something together I offer you cooporation in Czech Republic because we are producer for the electricity and we build charging spots as well so that’s
Perfect well there you go deals are being made the future is being built here on the economist stage that’s what I like to see I have just a a little bit of time a short question and a short from the stage go ahead sir hi my name
Is IV taka I ran a company called generation C which is about connecting the decarbonization and climate stories of the business Community with schools and school kids so they get to understand the range of future green careers and the opportunities for them so specifically for Duncan um you
Talking about skills and training um which I presume is primarily to people entering the workforce or currently in your Workforce but what are you doing to connect with the next generation of kids to explain to them the vast range of jobs that will exist in in the renewable
Energy business yeah it is actually both it’s both at career entry but it’s also at career conversion as well and and you know we have we we equally have programs across both you know one of one of one of uh things I’m proud of is our apprenticeship program engaging with
People right at the start of their career maybe school school lever stage and bringing in you know as as rich and diverse and a new new cohorts as we as we possibly can developing new programs combining education and on on the job training we go out and engage in the
Communities local to where our our business is working so here here in the UK that that includes both our east and west coast so up in uh in Barrow in the West on the Irish se you know we we are a big part of that local community we
Know the schools in the region we do exactly the same in the East around uh Grimsby and our our East Coast Hub there um and and it and it works at different ages groups as well so we find it’s really important to engage through that school journey and and and and and um
You know make information and opportunity visible to teachers parents and children through those different stages where decisions get made and and people’s interest get sparked so children are the future the great philosopher Whitney Houston once said um that brings us to a close for this panel please give them a nice round
Of applause And please for me invite you