Is it time for England to freshen things up? |The Telegraph Rugby Podcast

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Watch the full episode here: https://youtu.be/ARqa0xWGl6I?si=BqRMibYydiE_w-8K

Ben, Charlie and Charles reflect on Scotland’s win over England in the Calcutta Cup, their fourth in a row, and ask if it’s time for Steve Borthwick to turn to some of the younger members of his squad and move on from more experienced players.

Before we chat too much England can we just praise um Scotland and talk about what Scotland did well what what did you what were you most impressed by out of their performance um I think I think given what we know about their backline it wasn’t necessarily surprising that they work that first try

For Vander mura um and then the second two for for him also were sort of more just um seeing space playing to space really quickly off off transition off the off um one of a million turnovers that England cuffed up in the first instance for try number two and then

Secondly off that Cameron redpath break Finn Russell just the absolute Tormentor of England seeing space I actually think the balance of their back five impressed me the most um Grant G Scott Cummings really good really dovetailed really nicely in different ways two different locks um Grant kilchrist was re a real

Hefty nuisance around the breakdown a lot of counter recking really cleverly timed as well so really shunting into that those masses of bodies just as maybe Danny K was going to pass or kick making a making life really tough for Danny care and really slowing down and it was really interesting I’ve written

It in a in a piece of kind of wrap on um on Scotland’s performance Steve Tandy and marit toi had a bit of a hug in a chat at the end of the game and I remember Mario toi and it being slightly surprising um here Mario toi say Steve

Tandy working with him on 2021 Lions was awesome I learned so much he’s such a sort of visionary about coaching defense and um if at times I know they can they um conceded 21 points but the I think the the defense and the intelligence and the decision making around that was was

Really impressive in that back row and maybe maybe above all Jack Dempsey um that’s what that’s what kind of really really really caught me yeah Dempsey was outstanding wasn’t he I mean Charles we we can’t can’t not talk about danan and his his hattick the first hattick in the championship for Scotland against

England where does he sort of sit in the in the pecking order of of test wings for you at the moment at the minute he’s very very high um I think higher than his stock has risen since the World Cup um and uh a few a few of the guys have

Probably dropped down the pecking order a little bit and he’s very very high um I mean just the way that he took some of that those those Tri was just outstanding and but but I mean just in of the bigger picture um the finish the finishing was just

Sublime um but I mean in England and I know we’re going to come on to them but they they were stung by him last year and really it’s deja vu almost because one of the tries came from that you know F fabulous scrum setpiece move that that that Charlie’s just

Spoken about but two others really came from well there was one Majestic fin Russell cross kick but it came from a sloppy line break that where England let cam red path in behind and then it was they were chasing shadows and another one came from a you know an England drop

Pass Fairbank sort of headbutted the ball miles forward and and vander’s gone and and really after such a positive start England England were lost that they at the start of that second half there was a really good defensive stand from England where they kept them out

After many many phases I think it was Sam de Hill when when holding on penalty near the lineup might be wrong um and then and that felt like a big moment that felt like a big moment you’d felt there if if Scotland had scored then they would go on to win England

Kept them out and then a minute later 30 seconds later they’re scoring anyway with sort of relative ease admittedly with a bit of world class fly half play from Finn Russell but Vander murver is I think we we described him at the telegraph last year as Duhan the

Destroyer after the kolkat cup win at Twickenham well I don’t think there’s a there’s a sort of there’s a noun or an adjective that goes above that he was just the Destroyer again Mark 2 are we officially calling that George Fairbank era a falcon because that would excite

Me a lot if that’s the case is that the official verdict yeah I think so it went miles didn’t it it was real good but there there was sort of there was a that that second 20 minutes afterwards was the one that the players were going yeah gez

Don’t really know what happened the England players um but there were some that were just even more basic than that like sort of first phase trying to work just basic inside balls and just that them going down and actually it had been the weirdest thing is it had been coming against Wales so

You’re like what are they they would have looked at the Wales game and gone our handling on a nice day at Twickenham fairly dry conditions was poor let’s get better at that was really nice really nice conditions at murfield have to say Scotland Scotland played their part at

That start as well they had a bit of the they were they were fum they were a bit fumbly kyl stain came in and um pick and go around the edge dropped it danan vanda’s first time such was actually he got Stripped by George Ford I think um

Yeah so things got a bit better for him but no just just yeah alarmingly poor that that um the the mistake in the lead up to uh vaner mura second was really interesting because that was just when you it sounds like an excuse when you’re talking about backline changes

Um backline changes Co cohesion goes and therefore it’s more difficult if you watch um Slade and Fairbank occupy the same space they both come around on that in that sort of pocket behind forward getting each other’s way that’s why fa Banks unsighted and why it hits him in

The bonds but it just it looks Village when it happens it really looks like a kind of um just like what England looked like what they are at times which is a side who struggled for to keep Co keep combinations together and build cohesion and Scotland um look look totally

Opposite they look like a settled side that have pushed through this world cup cycle onto the next one you don’t even talk about World Cup Cycles when you talk about the Scotland side because they’ve been settled for longer than that so that’s the difference there um

And yeah and and it was kind of it was fairly fairly jarring in a strange way it was almost a good reflection of just where England are isn’t it because they had the winds over Italy and Wales and and we kind of jokingly talked about it at the end of

The last podcast anyy where we said well listen if they win at murrayfield then all of a sudden they’re three from three and and you know people start start to raise their eyebrows I I think the I watched the came back this morning on my on my flight back the catalog of catalog

Of individual errors errors that you’ve touched already Charlie is quite extraordinary you can understand it a bit more I guess in the second half when they’re sort of chasing the game and the scoreboard is getting away from them a bit and they’re trying to force things but but there’s still moments such as

Toj choke tackle or when when y Ashman comes in for a rip on someone or the the Ben Spencer grubber into someone’s ankles which then turns into an Andy Christie penalty turnover like where you’re just kind of I think you lose a bit of Goodwill and patience there if

You’re a if you’re a supporter because you’re you’re expecting more from from a group of clearly quite talented players I I mean Charles what what’s a positive out of this for England what what can they take from it it’s quite hard because the individual erors were so bad

It’s feel quite hard to pick out many things I guess well I think what they can take from it is certainly that some of those individual eras are quite uncharacteristic you mean you know you look at George Ford passing inaccurately you know he’s grown into one of England’s if not Europe’s one leading

Passing fly harves and him passing inaccurately is you can’t you can’t mitigate for that Mara toj is rarely has a bad game for England and he wasn’t at his best yesterday um as you’ve mentioned he was choke tackled at the end these the uncharacteristic errors OE Lawrence how

Many times has he thrown a pass into touch for bath this this season you know when when trying to locate a teammate you know I haven’t seen it if it has happened then then then fair enough but so so that’s that’s certainly a positive that’s I mean it’s it’s it’s straw

Clutching a bit but the fact that the errors were were on such an individual level and collectively England did at times look better you look at the some of the first phase stuff and certainly that opening try from Fairbank um at times England did look better and their

Phase their phase defense I suppose again wasn’t I know they considered three tries but it didn’t come from sustained Scottish pressure um so and the set piece was good Dan Cole had a good game didn’t he um genj was genj was decent and the two they’re building a good sort of quartet

Of props there um I think I think there are positives to take certainly but I think we are talking about England in just a more negative and pessimistic tone than potentially we were last week where we were sort of saying that if they went to murrayfield

And won then that’s three from three you sort of guaranteed third maybe second with the result today um and suddenly your championship’s looking completely different but you know they were 10- nil up after England were 10- n up after 16 minutes and looked the better side really for the opening 16 minutes and

They it almost looked as if you know there was only one team who was going to win that game and then they conceded 27 points to six in the ensuing half an hour or whatever it was and it was gone and then and then by the

End I mean we’ve chatted a bit about this already privately but I just couldn’t believe how pedestrian and ponderous they were towards the latter stages of that game when they were chasing it needing two scores to win I I wonder if the Finn Smith Miss conversion meant that they thought that they

Couldn’t win um you know not to blame him at all but obviously that would have got them within seven and I wonder if they felt that they couldn’t wi there just wasn’t enough time and that they were playing for a losing bonus point because you know it’s all well and good

Box kicking up the field and having to gain territory and and sticking to that sort of strategy but at some point you might have to throw a bit of caution to the wind because time time was running out they didn’t have the time to kick and risk losing possession they needed

To play and they and they didn’t and they didn’t seem to even comprehend that or acknowledge that or even maybe they don’t have it in maybe they don’t feel like they’ve got it in their locker um but you know when they were chasing the game in those last 10 minutes I think

From about the 73rd minute onwards it it felt as though England thought they were going to lose and even when they were getting penalties there was there was not a lot of urgency to to kick to the corner um I mean I know it’s again it’s

It’s clutching at straws a bit but you were just sort of there watching it going why are you not all moving a little bit quicker given that time is running out and it felt like you had a bit of momentum when Emanuel foso came on and scored that great try it felt

Like they were building something they might not have gone and one but it felt like that the that you know there was a spark there and it just it fizzled out I thought I thought that um I’ve written about foso I think he’s got to start in

At least one of the next two games I think George Martin off them a bit off the bench um but it’s bizarre I’ve been trying to sort of get my head around it ever since it happened this game because there’s so so much as ever so much

Content in a test match right and actually what England will say is that with the Box kicking and why they would have stuck to it at the end is because it was presenting them with opportunities because they Freeman and um Dy to a lesser extent and then they

Were both when he came on were getting up contesting and that was an area that they were putting pressure on Scotland um in um but there are a couple of things wrong with it one is that but do they have the pace and the alertness and

The skills to then strike off those off those loose balls that they’re that they’re winning back I don’t think so I don’t think they really have since since Johnny may was in his pump um when sort of around sort of 20 2017 2020 they were really good at at striking and sort of

Off turnover and off those in those kick battles I think they they will aim to get back towards that and then the second thing is just when it look when it is inaccurate and a Chase isn’t well coord at it looks really bad and sucks energy out because it is just almost

Like a free hit it’s almost just giving the ball back very away very easily so there was a bit of that um going on but that’s what I mean about with the with the kick battle going well scrummaging being sort of fine um and then with the

Phase defense okay um they can see the three tries sort of lightning bolts is the is the um sort of the trendy term isn’t it with all of that going wrong and then you add in the sorry all of that going sort of okay and then you add

In the handling errors it’s it’s still quite hard to judge England the kind of the kind of um I was looking forward to the game because it would be I really felt like it we would really learn a lot either way you know it would be like a

Step it would be a step forward if they won and it I would I believe it would have been one of the best probably the maybe just behind that Argentina winning the World Cup I still yeah I think over the next two weeks we’ll really see whether they’re treading water and even

Going backwards or there is meaning for Progress there