Day 1 – Panel 1 of the 2024 Italian Symposium.
Panel discussion will be in English.
Barbara Serra is an Italian-born British-based journalist and author who’s been presenting on Sky News since October 2023. From 2006 to 2022 Serra anchored the main European Newshour for Al Jazeera English, where she also reported from across Europe and the Middle East. In 2019 Serra was made a Knight of the Order of the Star of Italy by the Italian President. Her 2020 documentary ‘Fascism in the Family’ won gold for both the ‘History’ and ‘Current Affairs’ categories at the New York Festivals TV and Film categories.
Nathalie Tocci is Director of the Istituto Affari Internazionali, part-time professor at the School of Transnational Governance (European University Institute), Honorary Professor at the University of Tübingen and independent non-executive director of Acea. She has been Special Advisor to EU High Representatives Federica Mogherini and Josep Borrell. In that capacity, she wrote the European Global Strategy and worked on its implementation. She is Europe’s Futures fellow at the Institute for Human Sciences (Institut für die Wissenschaften vom Menschen, IWM). She was Pierre Keller Visiting Professor at the Harvard Kennedy School and, prior to joining Acea, she was independent board member first of Edison and then of Eni. She has held research positions at the Centre for European Policy Studies, Brussels, the Transatlantic Academy, Washington, the European University Institute, Florence, and has taught at the College of Europe, Bruges.
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Well as your questions to the guests um I’ll leave it up to the moderators to introduce our esteem guests um the panel is presented by Dr Angelo Martelli who is from the European Institute at the LC and Sarah vuto who is a KCl student thank you very much for everyone for being here
So good afternoon everyone um I’m very delighted and honored to be sharing this panel together with Sara um and we are delighted to have with us Natalie toi who is director at The Institute of Fire International in Rome one of the leading think tanks in Europe um and also with
Barbara sah uh we a freelance journalist used to work for aler for almost six 16 years uh and recently uh moved to Sky News uh and is one of the the few within Italian Heritage journalist in the anglophone world um and we are going to tackle quite an interesting topic Europe
Between the wars and uh the Italy’s role within it um so uh the way we’ll proceed is that we will start with some questions from Sara and myself uh and then we will open up up for questions from the audience uh we are actually going to close around uh in one hour um
And uh because they both have other commitments uh to attend and uh therefore let’s kick off um so uh the first question to both our speakers is where do we stand is an extremely general question because we are actually facing extremely turbulent times uh and so I would like to understand from your
Point of view is Europe pulling its weight uh when it comes to the war in Ukraine and the conflict in Gaza and what about Italy so uh Natalie if you would like to start and then perfect well firstly let me start off by saying
How delighted I am to to be here to be at the Symposium um I’ve actually just learned quite recently about the Italian society and I think it’s an absolutely fantastic idea I mean I used to be uh an Italian student uh in uh in the UK far
Too many years ago um and I would have loved something like this to exist so it’s it’s really wonderful to be here so where do we stand so in a sense the sort of short answer is not in a very good place um the slightly more elaborate
Answer um is well firstly I would really make obviously a distinction between uh between Ukraine and the Middle East um as follows when it comes to Ukraine um we’re in a bad place to the extent that we um had a strategy I think that strategy um did actually achieve a
Number of things I mean if you think about uh what Europe did over the last couple of years you can basically say well firstly Europe stood and stands United and this is certainly something that is not very common when it comes to European foreign policy right um I mean
The sort of basic answer that any student would give you as to what is the problem in European foreign policy is the fact that member states are divided right and this has not been the case as far as Ukraine is concerned you know over the course of of two years if you
Take as an indicator the now 13 packages of sanctions on Ukraine there has basically been Unity uh and even the sort of pariah in the room IE uh Hungarian prime minister Victor Orban uh despite his repeated attempts at vetoing has basically been put in l um you could basically say well not only
Has there been Unity uh but as far as say defense is concerned um the European Union has made remarkable steps forward first time that the EU provides military assistance to a third state at War so this is you know unprecedented um it has revived enlargement enlargement was essentially
Dead in the water um because basically Europeans had lost a sense of the Strategic imperative of of enlargement and thought that enlargement was something that we could afford not to do so enlargement is back um you know the hosting of refugees I mean I could give you several examples the weaning off
From Russian uh gas you know so you look at these various examples and you’re like oh well this is a good story it’s a good story if you look at it from the inside out right if you’re looking at it from the outside in where are we in the
War well obviously we’re not in a very good place and I think the reason why that’s the case is because essentially it was a strategy that was premised on an understanding and the understanding was uh we need to support Ukraine to the extent not to the extent to make Ukraine
Win this war but to the extent to avoid Russia from winning it right and the Assumption was that this would put the parties and especially it would put Ukraine in the best possible condition to negotiate an agreement and basically this was the strategy that sort of ran
Us through up until a few months ago I.E up until the end of the counter offensive and then all of a sudden we realized that hey Russia doesn’t want to negotiate anything here right um and now we’re in a in a phase in which we realize that the strategy has to change
So it’s not sufficient for instance just emptying stocks of weapons Russia put itself on a war footing its economy has been on a war footing ours is not so it really requires and perhaps you can get into this later on but just to leave it
At that so you know we did well uh looking at it from one perspective looking at it from the other was certainly not where where we should be now when it comes to the Middle East it’s it’s an absolutely catastrophic situation right so when it comes in the
Middle East obviously that Unity is not there right um and one only needs to look at the two votes at the UN General Assembly uh to realize that basically Europe is split three-fold when it comes to to gas especially as far as positioning on the U uh ceasefire is
Concerned you almost and here I’m going to obviously betray where I stand personally but you almost kind of think well it’s good that we’re divided I mean imagine if we were united we would probably be United on the wrong position right so so thank goodness for for European division but anyway we’re
Divided uh number one we don’t have you know unlike Ukraine where we have a number of instruments right there’s enlargement there’s the hosting refugees there’s the energy stories there’s the military story here there are no instruments at all right so we’re we’re divided we don’t have the capacity to
Act and we basically kind of you know don’t have the legitimacy and credibility to act um so I’ll leave it at that for for now but you know as opposed to the first situation in which as I said it’s a question of doing more and better here it’s a question of very
Radically turning on its head what we’ve been doing so far thank you very much over to you baba uh thank you um it’s great to be here I was actually a member of the Italian Society at the LC back between 1993 and 1996 we did exist I know it’s the wow um
I think we just like had pizza parties at the time so it’s good to see which were great but it’s good to see um especially at a time and I’ll talk about it now about I think the need of more different voices and truly diverse voices when it comes to nationalities
Not just ethnicity and religion it’s actually great in a place like the LSC to see you know different voices that sometimes step out of the anglophone world so listen Natalie obviously is going to give you a geopolitical um Insight that as a journalist I I you know don’t don’t have the qualifications
Uh to give you journalists almost by definition are not experts uh but observers and questioners I suppose when you say where do I think we are are now beyond the wars and if I had to put a date you know I know that this is
Obvious but I would say that 2016 was a turning point and as someone who spent 16 years at Al jazer English and starting with the war on terror in 2006 which again a different world for your generation but believe me things were pretty tense uh then too and then seeing
Through the Arab Spring and then Trump and now working back in domestic stroke Western news I do think that we are seeing you know we could call a crisis of Western values and certainly a crisis in the perception of the West from outside if there’s one word that always
Cropped up in 16 years at Al jazer in the accusations of the West and can I just say I am very happy to be a western woman I’m very I think being born in Italy or generally you know in a country where as a woman I could express myself
Has been a blessing so I’m not slamming the west but I’m just saying obviously there are changes and that word that kept on cropping up was hypocrisy that is the thing that we always as westerners get accused of in media coverage in our actions in wars in
Reaction to the war on terror in action or in action over Gaza actually over Ukraine as well so many articles slamming Western media about the coverage of Ukraine and many parts of the global South not really coming to our not necessarily assistance but even you know saying the the right words of
Solidarity so I think that that’s kind of where uh where we are you know a lot of the things are obvious and I don’t have to tell you you know it starts with brexit and the first real crack in the idea of the European Union and and what
That means you know the great advantage of course that countries like Russia have and sometimes some Middle Eastern countries are they don’t have to worry with elections uh believe you me I mean you know we’re about to enter election period this is I think the year ever
That more people will go to the polls than any other time and you know you you have to sometimes bring unpalatable truths uh to the elector and it doesn’t always work I think in Donald Trump we are seeing possibly again regardless of what happens we are seeing a shift from
Western democracy being based on ideas and Western democracy or maybe not so much liberal democracy based on on personalities and there are echoes there of monarchies and dictatorships you know when he famously said I could be on Fifth Avenue and shoot someone dead and people was to vote for me well there’s
Something in that because then that means it’s the cult of personality um so I think that there’s a lot of shifts like that um I think in covering I was at Al jazer when Ukraine started and then I literally joined sky like five days after uh the the 7th of
October attack again when it comes to the global South a lot of accusations that you know we all put our hands up in the air when Ukraine happened don’t get me wrong terrible um atrocities in Ukraine but that we don’t share the same empathy with other parts of the world
Obviously the war between Israel and Hamas is proving incredibly divisive not just in places like the general assembly or the EU but in communities I mean we’re feeling it incredibly in the United Kingdom I know in Italy as well maybe not quite to the same extent but uh but certainly it’s something that
That is felt is proving divisive and divisive in the United States and in all of that as a journalist I’m not sure I would say that media is broken but media is going through a change that where no one could really tell you in five years
Where you’re going to be I mean I stepped away from a big Network like Al jaaz I did my own thing for about a year and a half and now I’m back with a big you know Sky it’s part of the sky group in Europe and also owned by Comcast and
And I’m a big believer that actually sometimes you do need big organizations to do the news properly because it costs a lot of money if you’re going to send someone we can’t get into Gaza we’ll talk about that later but if you’re going to send someone anywhere you need
Clout you need money you need contacts otherwise you’re sending people you know to Poss not a very good end but as we will know everything is kind of crumbling um the online audience is changing and even in newsrooms I am noting a generational shift and I mean
You might relate to this because a lot of the young journalists will be roughly your age where activism and journalism gets a bit mixed up it’s always you know they they often overlap and they have to because you can’t just be neutral in front of tragedies um but I see a lot of
Shifts I think that that in any democracy obviously overlaps with any decision that you know you cannot have functioning democracies without a functioning media and we will talk about the difference between Ry and the BBC a little later on but so that’s that’s where I am you obviously I totally Echo
Natalie and everything she says about um you know the geopolitical aspect but unfortunately even Beyond it within our Nations within the narratives within our Nations I see problems as well thank you um and on the Gaza conflict then I’m just following up um because that’s where also Natalie ended her preliminary
Remarks in a recent Guardian piece you have been very critical uh of the tabid response by the EU um with regard to the Gaza conflict uh to this not united front uh and uh you have questioned The credibility uh of the EU uh in its response so do you think that the EU
Really RIS to become um irrelevant as a global diplomatic actor so I would say three things to this um and and the reason why I just found the European response so sort of disconcerting when it comes to to to Gaza um yeah the fact that the EU uh Europe most European
Countries have not so beyond the point about division that I was making earlier let’s just put that to one side the fact that that you has not taken a particularly principled position Frankly Speaking does not necessarily surprise me right I mean it’s not the first time
And it will not be the last time right um so you know so of if I put a very cynical hat on you’re like okay well you know I mean we’ve taken unprincipled positions before I mean if you think about the whole what you know for those
Of you that are you know sort of into European studies international relations um you know the whole sort of debates about normative power Europe and the criticism of that um I mean you know sort of nothing I mean much much more serious in many respects right but but
Nothing extraordinarily new um it starts getting a little bit more surprising when you’re like Okay so we’ve been unprincipled but we’re also acting against our interests and this connects very much point the bad word I was making when we used to live in the world of the liberal
International order of US and Germany it was a world in which you could be unprincipled but at the end of the day you know sort of you not we weren’t necessarily the sort of strongest kid on the Block but we were behind the strongest kid on the blog right and so
It didn’t really matter it didn’t really matter what what we now call the global South used to think yes they used to accuse us even back then of hypocrisy and double standards and all the rest of it but who cares right I mean they don’t count well now they do so now that
Perception of hypocrisy and double standards is consequential uh and so we are acting also against our interest we not only unprincipled and then you take the third dimension of this um and and you say to yourself okay let’s say whatever let’s sideline principles let’s sideline interests the only thing
That matters here is Israel’s security given the history and all the rest of it okay I’ll go along with that in what way is what we’re doing now something which is actually going to strengthen Israel security I actually put this question last week at the Munich security conference to Anthony Lincoln and and
And I El in this you know I mean is what we’re doing know given the oppos our opposition to a ceasefire uh is that opposition and therefore the continuation of War something that you think is going to ultimately strengthen Israeli security and he was hard pressed to give
Me a positive answer to this I mean you can you can tell very clearly that I mean he’s got to do what his boss tells him to do but it’s I mean it is very clear to everyone right and so I really struggle to understand to find a
Rationale as I said you know maybe cynical as it may be a rationale to what we’re doing thank you I hand over to Sara for the um drawing from Barbara drawing from your experience at Al jazer now at Sky News could you elaborate on the differences between uh in narratives in
Focus and in audience between the Western media and the non-western media outlets and how these um Outlets impact the a global understanding of significant EV events like the war in Ukraine and the conflict in Gaza um uh yeah let me just can I can just pick up on something that that Natalie said
About the the security of Israel because I find that fascinating and and going back to my time at Al jaaz I think people forget the nature of the Arab world in many ways and when people talk about the Abraham Accords that had kind of tried to get relations you know when
You destabilize that area remember that the Arab Spring as far as I think isn’t really over I think it’s on pause I think never forget that when you look at the Arab world there’s one thing that you should remember about the Arab world is the median age the
Youth that there is in these countries so in a lot of countri think median age in Egypt is relatively high at 24 Palestinian terroris we know in Gaza it’s it’s 18 but usually it’s I mean literally it would be roughly your age in Italy it’s 47 and a half in the UK
It’s 44 and so what you have is uh you know the Arab world lots of countries with very old or old thinking dictators with a situation that hasn’t changed in these very young population so when we talk about destabilizing Israel’s security it’s not just so much Israel’s
Security uh against the sort of known enemies whether it’s asbah Iran Hamas whatever but Israel’s security if if a proper destabilization which is almost so awful it’s inconceivable but a proper destabilization of of the Arab world and I think it’s something that you know I mean obviously at Al jazer we spoke
About it a lot because we would speak to the sort of the so-call street the Arab street but um so that’s um so that I guess going back to your question would be one difference between Western and nonwestern um when I worked at Al jazer
I worked for Al jazer English which is a different channel to the Arabic channel it just is the Arabic channel has an obvious uh point of view it does have islamist leanings the alaz English Channel I think um was more like the BBC world of the situation and because we
Were based in London I used to present from London I was bound by ofcom regulations in the same way that I am at now maybe my boss is a different sensitivities fair enough but the regulation was the same which is actually stricter than R so ironically I was under more regulation to be
Impartial at Al jazer working out of London that I would have been working for Italian TV have that as a point um so you know people always ask me how does Al jazer cover this how does Al jazer cover that and I always say well
Al jaer covers that so Al jaer will tell you about what’s going on in DRC and okay T you know in Ethiopia a lot of people focus but we will tell you that Dynamics we don’t just jump into the stories at the last minute and look I
Don’t want to sit here and no network is perfect Al jazer is not perfect but I do think the ethos behind it was to give voice to the voiceless and at least start from the point that everyone’s life has equal value wherever you are in the world I know it sounds like in
Italian would say as viata but it it you know it really did it really was at the core of what people believed in and journalists like me believed in obviously since I joined alaz 2006 you had the enormous change of social media so when we started um right after or
During the war on terror you know it was it was almost unheard of that you would heard hear certain voices on mainstream media but then I think two things changed I think what we call Mainstream and I could bore you for hours about what I think I think there’s no such
Thing is international media I think there’s English language media and I think what we would call the international Nar narrative is very much in the hands of British and American voices I don’t mean this is a kind of like forced imperialism I think most of it is just a byproduct of language I
Mean what do you and I have in common I mean your English is amazing it’s like you know but like no obviously it is but what I mean is we have that tool right abolutely if we didn’t have that tool I don’t know about you but my life would
Have been very different right and so the there’s that you know there’s that use the word Supremacy it’s too intense but there is a an overbearing influence of the thoughts and feelings and sensitivities of the anglophone world that is what was different between Western and nonwestern I don’t believe again when people say
Western when my friends in the global south or from the global South say Western I always say you don’t mean Western you mean English and American with a sprinkling of France that’s what western is and that is so you know even when we say Western media you know it’s
It’s uh so I think it was that assignment or or of just saying look you know the whole world does not just revolve around Europe or the capitals of the US or the UK or the main you know room and Paris and whatever but social media changed that and I don’t know how
You guys are getting your information um about the war in Gaza for example I have to say I’m not on Tik Tok because I just I can’t deal with it right now but I am on Instagram and I think Instagram is actually the most powerful social media platform because it has everything it
Has the interaction through stories it has the images it has the video but it also gives you the the ability to write a caption of even one two paragraphs which actually Tik Tok isn’t about you know the caption on Tik Tok doesn’t really work so to me Instagram is the
Most powerful of the of the social media platforms and possibly the best one for news and the one I’d put my money on on really becoming a news interes um um and and my algorithm there is just I mean the anger that I sense coming from the
War you know about this war from you know contacts everywhere contacts on contacts and that has changed and and so I think you know the division that you talk of Western non-western anglophone non-anglophone whatever and sometimes it sides you know obviously the global South overwhelmingly is on the Palestinian side not Hamas the
Palestinian side um but I think that is another wall that is crumbling and we’re going to see the effects of that it’s like you say the global South matters in in every way thanks Natalie actually picking up on the effect that uh this is having on audiences uh in another recent piece
That you wrote um you were talking about the Munich security conference and how some of the speakers were actually speaking to their domestic audiences rather than being at a global stage and providing a speech for not just uh the US in particular um so uh as Barbara was
Saying we are in a year in which there will be around 64 countries going to elections plus the EU elections uh I was uh listening to an interview by Gideon rakman to an apple buom and they were saying that probably by the end of the year we will have three
Autocracies um including to adding to China and Russia’s us how do you think will than elections and I know it’s a super big question but how do you think will elections in the coming year affect uh the response to the to the two conflicts yeah well first let me make a
General remark about about elections and then I’ll come to to this question the general remark is is in a sense is very interesting Paradox right because now for a number of years we’ve been talking about a democratic recession and it’s absolutely clear that this is what’s
Going on right I mean it’s you know I mean year after year after year the various Freedom houses and all the rest of it measure the way in which there is this corrosion of democracy and yet at the same time elections have never been so popular and you know bad was was
Saying there’s you know four billion people in the world going to to the polls and the way in which autocracies which also have elections right which of course you know have a different meaning and yet they are taken taken quite seriously I mean they’re the
The the standard is not so much who wins yeah so I mean you know breaking news Vladimir Putin is going to win the elections right or you know the end of last year you know um alisi won the Egyptian elections so the the the outcome in terms of who wins is not
Really the question but turnout is a question um and and you know the the the way in which dictators really go out of their way to ensure that people go out and vote because it’s exstension which which is basically an expression of uh of dissent which I think is an
Interesting point so I think there’s Paradox of yes you know Democratic recession on the one hand and yet elections have never been so so popular anyway coming to the your question um you know which elections matter and how do they matter for for these two Wars I mean basically there are four relevant
Election I mean there are many elections but there are four really relevant elections here um there’s the Russian election which is actually extremely relevant and it’s extremely relevant because one can imagine that up until then which is kind of almost now right because uh the elections are taking uh
Place next next month but up until then we will see what we’re seeing now but probably we will see the a new Mobil mobilization in Russia taking which is an extremely unpopular move happening after the the election which means that the tempo of the new Russian offensive
Is going to be determined in a sense by the timing of of that election so I think that that’s one election again not particularly surprising what the outcome’s going to be but yet important in determining the dynamic of the war um then there is the election which may not
Happen right which is the one in Israel uh I mean it is quite clear the way in which this war is is continuing because there is in particular one man that does not want to go to the polls uh and that’s Benjamin nany and so the extent
To which so this is more of a reverse situation right so whereas in the case of Russia it’s the time of the election that determines the pace of the war here it is the continuation of the the war that enables an election not to happen which I think is another important
Aspect and then coming to the heart of the I think your question which is the European election and the US election now on the European election ction let me say let me say perhaps a couple of things I mean um it is now you know fairly common to hear and you see it
Poll after poll this kind of risk or threat or hope depending where you stand politically over right-wing shift right in in Europe um you know given the in Europe elections tend to be uh 27 national elections um my hunch but you know I may be proven wrong but my hunch
Is that it’s probably not going to be as radical as what some people think right um and especially in terms of how then this translates into the next political institutional cycle um yes elections are important what’s also important are who are the leaders sitting around the table
Of the European Council and if you just take the relatively big member states uh nothing against the small but just to give a sense you basically see well you know what we know for sure right we already know now that you’re going to have two socialists now that Spain uh
And and Germany um you’re going to have two liberals let’s call them that so you have you know maon and uh and Tusk I would even if he’s in the EP I would Define him as a liberal you will definitely have one right-wing leader and that’s George milone and let’s see
If the Netherlands will have a government maybe they still won’t have a government but it’s two two and two so there’s nothing radical about that that shift right so I would say yeah you know you’ll probably see in a sense you’re already beginning to see a little bit of
Green lash a bit of you know sort of elements of that right-wing tilt but nothing dramatic then comes of course the election in the United States and of course there the question is uh you know sort of the a trump comeback what does this mean for the for the wars I would
Say it means something very dramatic when it comes to Ukraine I mean literally abandoning Ukraine the next next uh uh the next day nothing fundamentally different when it comes to the Middle East I mean let’s not forget that Biden actually has continued what what were Trump’s policy I mean the whole framework whole
Paradigm of normalization which actually got us to this war in many ways is precisely in a sense the line traced from Trump to to Biden is is very clear in fact I would add that um Trump in his Trump way did try and propose the deal of the century right Biden didn’t even
Try that right he was he’s been the first president that didn’t even attempt to solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict yeah um so anyway I don’t see any radical movement on mise I definitely see it on on Ukraine but then looping back to Europe to me the question is in that right-wing tilt in
Europe right which may not be particularly radical but yet yet is kind of there then you have Trump coming back how does that feed back into Europe does that um rather timid and tepid move to the right become far more radic you know far more radical um post Trump in Europe
Does and this gets us you know sort of and I leave you with that thought because it gets us to Italy does Georgia milone who has been behaving as a relatively good Western citizen right uh up until now um does she lower her mask the minute in which Trump comes back I
Don’t have an answer to that question but I think it’s a relevant question to ask thank you natal I hand over to the last question so in early February uh the following the Saro Music Festival Italy State broadcaster Ry was involved in a controversy over its involvement in
The Israel Gaza conflict and this incident started with the Italian singer G who during his performance said stop the genocide and after this it followed a tweet by the uh Israeli Ambassador in Italy that said it’s shameful that the festival didn’t show solidarity to Israel um and just spread um hate so
Then the CEO of R um made a present a read a statement uh that showed solidarity towards Israel and to the victims um of the 7th of October and this event led to protest and um demonstrators accusing Ray of uh bias in its invol and also criticizing its
Management uh for supporting Ry and U ignoring the plight of Palestinians so considering these mixed reactions to this issue um what role do you believe state funded media um should play in shaping public opinion during um International crisis particularly when the government stance is so clear uh so
First of a poor maraver who just the whole thing like I don’t know how how long has she been on TV because in Italy like they last forever and I’m going to spend the last Decades of my career in Italy because it just keep you um so
Yeah um I’ll pick you up on a word shaping um because you asked me um how does public service broadcasting shape of you and I’m not sure now I know you know this could sound overly naive I’m not sure that that is the role of a public service broadcaster or a
Journalist and then again this is quite a British thing I remember a while ago I was at the Frontline club and it was at the discussion about migration and the BBC specialist on migration was asked you know how can she how does she try to tell people that migration is a good
Thing and she replied it is not my job to tell anyone that migration is a good thing it is my job to tell you what is going on and what the facts are now listen you can take that ideology to extreme sometimes but it’s a good
Foundation to have going back to Ry BBC Public Service broadcasting just today John Simpson who I don’t know whether many of you know can I just how many of you guys watch the BBC or consume the BBC in one way or another half is that half the room no
More than half okay good that’s okay that’s good well you pay for it so um um so John Simpson has been there forever in a day you know he’s very old school but he he knows the stuff and he’s a one of I think he’s their foreign World
Editor and he tweeted this um uh this poll by a new Think Tank called more and common whose head I used to go to UNI with here at the LC mat leev another LSC graduate uh and this um Think Tank released um a study that said 50% of the
Country thinks the BBC has been Pro Israeli and 50% of the country thinks the BBC has been Pro Palestinian I think a lot of it is perception and increasingly like I was mentioning before you know the way that we perceive what news should be is changing and the idea of impartiality and increasingly
People are calling you biased when you’re you’re telling them things that they don’t want to hear right um and and that is I think happening a lot uh the role of Ry has always been slightly strange look you know the BBC is far from perfect and there have been a lot
Of accusations uh of um you know of internal political sways I think it’s nothing like what Ry certainly is now or has been through the years you know I I was on air during the hbert lone years so it’s different um it’s a hard one to call but I would
Think that as a journalist you have to stick to the facts and be really honest with the audience so again as a journalist I can tell you that the one thing to remember about reporting of Gaza over the past well since October 8 whenever they first um uh uh started
Attacking the strip is that no International journalist has been allowed to set foot in Gaza no one we’re not allowed in we can go in ineds and I don’t know if you know what an ined is it’s when you go with an army so during the war on terror Afghanistan Iraq you’d
Always get journalists going in with the Army and the IDF the Israeli Defense Force has allowed some journalists to go in with them but when you go in with them you are with them you can’t speak to anyone you literally don’t move I mean it’s better than nothing but it’s
Not independent reporting not by a shot so bear that in mind no International journalist has set foot in Gaza Clarissa Ward went in not with the IDF I think it was some medical team from the UAE but again had to stay with them you know you
Can’t just go and report and the IDF will say it’s for your own safety well frankly if you’re a war correspondent you know you’ve kind of made your piece with like how you know and it’s and it’s and all the networks have said you know we would never expect you to protect us
It is a risk we take so that’s not being allowed to happen and so that is interfering with factual reporting because then when people question uh the veracity of the casualty figures or which you know what what’s going on in certain hospitals you are relying on
Things coming in now there’s a lot of teams Al jazer English obvious or Al jazer has a team in Gaza obviously the BBC has a team although they pulled out you know we have people we work with but these journalists are exhausted doesn’t even begin to cover it because you don’t
Take your family to a war zone if you’re a correspondent where these people have their families there and so how do you overcome that lack of trust that there is now for mainstream media the truth is I don’t know and that’s a question that everyone is wrangling with I mean you
Know I’m of a certain age where by my peers you know the ones that aren’t on air will now being key editorial positions I mean don’t think that people have that sus everyone is is looking around and social media you know often you are rewarded by having these strong
Almost black and white opinions and it is comp and you’re saying it’s complicated doesn’t mean not having empathy and not realizing that there’s a stronger side and a weaker side but it is comp complicated and like you mentioned guaranteeing the security of Israel is at the core of any kind of
Future negotiation right and often that just gets overlooked or not mentioned at all um seeing as I’m talking about narratives and we mentioned Georgia Maloney um I saw a tweet the other day by like someone who focus on the far right saying the Ukraine war is the best
Thing that could have happened to Georgia monei which I thought was harsh but I could see why she has absolutely um you know she may well mean it I’m not saying that she doesn’t in her support of of Ukraine against Russia but it has been the sort of safe Pair of Hands that
The International Community both the EU the UK and and Biden have wanted to see there was obviously the whole Hoopa around Fascism and I think a lot of that at the beginning I mean FAL has obvious links that we all know about to Neo fascism there are members of our party
Who still now you know are caught either lifting arms or celebrating dates they probably shouldn’t be um celebrating but I think there was a bit of a hyperbole in some of the western coverage where it was like oh my so it kind of became either she was a fascist and the black
Sherts were about to March through Rome or she’s absolutely fine she’s just a social conservative hey you know what happens um and and I think that had an impact actually in in the way that people are swinging out it also has to be said that some of the things that we
Accused her of being far right for frankly you’re hearing from the government here or voices here let alone the United States and certain parts of the Republican Party and when you saw Rishi could go to Tru ATU the the conference in December um you know I mean he was using language around
Migration of I think it was Invasion threat to Western democracy know those are exactly the phrases that we used to point the finger to to salvini or Maloney and say you are far right you know even the terminology is a mess because in Italian there’s no such word
Phrase as far right sometimes we say sovereignist but sovereignist so I think sometimes we get lost certainly something I would accuse the media of you know self accused we get lost in definitions and get over excited and actually what I would like to see leading up to the election is okay who
Are we calling what and why right um so and I think that all has to do with media and there are slight differences but again I think what is said in in the English language media shapes the global narrative so to me what is said in and
How how it’s framed in the English language media has a wider impact thank you so in good LSC fashion we now open to uh the audience um let’s see how many questions there are maybe we can group them since as I said around uh 3:45 we
Will have to stop um so let’s see how many questions there are okay let’s take these let’s start with these two then uh if you can just state your name and who you are uh and yeah I don’t think speak up speak up it’s not working is it I mean we can hear
You yeah yeah yeah now okay well I have a question for um Madame toi uh when the Gaza war broke out one of the first speculations for the reasons behind the war was that Iran was trying to prevent the peace processes between the Arab and Israeli War from
Moving on and my question is if you were Mr Hony blink on October 7th would you have advised Mr Benjamin netan not to retaliate in any way but only ask for the return of hostages and offer all countries in the Arab board the normalization of relations in front of
The UN General Assembly thank you okay so um what would I advise so I think there’s there’s an important question that needs to be answered here I mean for those of us and I include myself in this that have been extremely critical uh about uh how Israel has been reacting
I think it does I mean the question is what else could they have done I mean this is normally the question which is asked and indeed I think that it is um it would be not only naive but just plain wrong to assume that they should have just done nothing or they should
Have just done um you know sort of pursued a diplomatic track completely devoid of a military component right I mean given what happened I think there is a um an important truth to A Narrative of of self-defense now the question though is is this the only way to pursue self-defense was there another
Way uh in which Israel would would have in my view become actually a safer country not only in the short uh and medium term but but in the long term and I think the answer to that that is a yes there is there was another way what
Could the components of that are the way have been firstly I would say well border defense I mean in a very basic way um there was um you know the Hamas attack happened because there was an a a violation of a border H and because basically Israel had lowered its guard
On that border it was far too concentrated on the West Bank and indeed you know over the years it had been interacting uh with Hamas in different ways and it assumed basically that there was no real problem there so it did lower the guard on the on the border and
That guard needed to put you know be put back up so that’s one element second element I would say is well remember what you know say goldem may did back in in the 1970s after the Munich attack she made it quite clear we will go after each and every one of the perpetrators
Of this of this attack and it can take as long as it takes but we will do it right so we’re not in a hurry um and and I think you know that would have provided a message of you know Justice will be made um but we will do it in a
Sense in a um not in a war fashion but more in a counterterrorism fashion if you see what I mean then I think there’s a third lesson which actually goes back to the United States itself I thought it was very interesting that you know when Biden went to Israel and he said well
You know don’t repeat our mistakes not only did he not follow his own advice later on but anyway that again takes us to a different uh point but there was actually one lesson going back to 911 not so much what happened over time and what happened over time were indeed
The wars and you know I would say Afghanistan is perhaps a different story but definitely Iraq that that was really where it all went P peir shaped but George W bush not exactly a dove right George W bush did not invade Afghanistan the day after or two days after or three
Days after he waited six weeks in which he built an International Coalition at a time in which solidarity with the United States was Sky High so basically in whatever it is that the United States did it did it at least at the beginning with a big dose of legitimacy Israel
Could have done that right it didn’t have to be Israel against you know Hamas and the rest of the world right especially on the 8th of October it had the World Behind it it started going so I’m I’m not trying to pretend here that my alternative answer I mean it’s a
World of counterfactuals right so I mean I cannot know whe whether it would have been more effective I just point to certain elements to suggest that I think there was a different way which which then indeed would have included as you were suggest in a a diplomatic political
Component as well but but you know I think what I’m trying to say is that political diplomatic component does not necessarily mean that there would have been the complete absence of a military one but it could have in my view should have been a different kind of military
Response thank you uh there is a question back there and then uh we also try to group a couple more questions yeah because there is an online audience so it’s good that you keep the microphone s on all right yeah um hello my name is Matthew I am a student from
The European Institute and also I’m a mentor student from Angelo uh my question concerns the Russia uh Ukrainian War um seems to me that the situation is not very it’s is not going very well for Ukraine um recently Russia just gained this Ukrainian Tong um and my question is
Given um so we have two options and they are they are both off the off the table so we cannot have ceasefire with them at least that’s not in the western mainstream Media or let’s say Anglo sax media um that’s not that’s not an option
And also we um we cannot send troops to to Ukraine I mean Biden make it very clear at the very beginning of the war um so those two options they are off the table but but it seems the situation right now is that Russia still has business as usual with nonwestern ro
That’s one and secondly um Ukraine has been outnumbered out weaponed um even reported by Western media um we cannot send troops so instead we send we we provide economic aid um but they have to fight with their own right with their own men um and now their average Soldier age has become
Increased to mid- 40s um so given those constraints do we still have any other uh potential options um for the EU thank you let me collect another couple of questions uh in that road yeah if you can pass down the mic yeah thank you my name it switches off
By itself pleas okay my name is V I’m a PhD student at the Europe Institute and I work policy so I guess my question maybe let me just start um by saying um it’s very nice to see two Italian women like here uh and talking about their like professional experience
And everything um I don’t want it to be as violin but actually it’s a very nice message that you’re sending to all of us um and I guess I was uh uh maybe my question is directed a little bit more towards uh Dr toi but like I was in in
Intrigued when when you when you called enlargement uh an instrument because to a certain extent that is true enlargement also in the past has been one of the most effective maybe the only effective instrument of you foreign policy especially in the neighborhood uh not just from the economic point of view
Social but also I mean conflict resolution if we think even about the case of Cyprus uh that you definitely know more about than me um so I was wondering um but then at the same time we constantly criticize the EU for like not being united enough and that and
Unity also comes with integration and we can see this kind of debate between integration and enlargement which one will we prefer and so I’m curious like in the way ahead what what do you think is recommendable which way should EU go because if it enlargement it enlarges to
Ukraine and like the Eastern partnership at least mova and the Balkans like we will not achieve more integration and especially in foreign and defense policy so what is the balance to achieve in your in your opinion very last question there was someone next to you was there no yes
G thanks I’m gulo thank you both for an amazing talk and I guess my question is to both but mostly to Barbara uh we’ve been talking about two Wars and how do we prevent a sort of competition amongst the unfortunate two populations that are in war and how do
We prevent as the West uh losing geopolitical legitimacy in the sense of the South the south of the word being as we say overwhelmingly for Palestine and how do we not with this polarization of who supports what war what cause what population lose uh a legitimacy and instead prevent
How do we prevent being hypocritical as we were saying at the start why don’t I take that question first and then you do the other two because they’re more about geopolitics by the way the last time I met Barbara was in 2015 16 when actually there was
She described it as one of the other watershed moments right there was the we met for at the peak of the refugee crisis uh and it was very interesting to see how narratives were playing a role absolutely you know it made a the word you used is legitimacy right and and I
Think um look I don’t think there’s no way of going back I think the the damage and we can have a long conversation as to whether it’s right or wrong and maybe people have expectations and you know it’s one thing to accuse the west of hypocrisy but in a world potentially led
By Russia or China you know we may hanker back to hypocrisy because at least hypocrisy implies that you’re starting off with a certain set of values and then you’re not living up to you know a world uh sort of where you have a dominance of Nations like Russia
And China you know maybe wouldn’t even be hypocritical because they don’t have that moral Paradigm set up for themselves um I don’t think it’s necessar just looking at think the global South is on the Russian side in Ukraine it’s more the again the hypocrisy I think first of all some of
The accusations Levy that Western media for example is unfair when I am on Sky News yes I am on an anglophone channel that has a footprint well beyond the United Kingdom it just does but I am also presenting the news to a British audience and I am tailoring what I say
To a British audience because that’s that’s what Sky News or you know that’s what the BBC is and the American networks do it for the for the US you know we are not the United Nations of news and that’s where you get you know this clash between the anglophone press
And I mean literally I have a newsletter called news with a foreign accent and I’ve launched an online course about you know Finding Your authentic voice when you speak English a second language because I feel so strongly that English is the global language and we need to
Find a way to get voices of second language English speakers heard but at the same time you know Western media is not meant to be the voice of the world yes the BBC will have like the world service and you know they had BBC world and still have a footprint
But it’s a British channel it’s in the name and so is Sky News and so that’s what sometimes is hard that because any channel in English will have a massive Global audience they’ll go ah but you’re giving more weight to that life or not the other one it’s like well if I’m
Working for a British Network it goes without saying it’s not about giving more weight to the you know everyone we all start from the point that all lives of equal value but obviously the audience will always be more interested on things that affect them directly you
Know I mean tonight I’m doing you know a press review I’m sure we will talk about things that have happened in the House of Commons or or things that specifically um you know affect a British audience so I think it’s a very complicated situation and I don’t think
It’s always the fault of what we could call Western media I think what there is is a lack of understanding of the role of language in news and how language is never just language language is culture if I had to be optimistic and I’m just going to
Throw a little bit of optimism AI is fascinating and AI could genuinely change the way news is done but I’ll tell you how it’s not going to change the way news is done if what we take is the usual big networks which tend to be from the anglophone world whether it’s
BBC CNN sky or the theft the New York Times the garden all those you’re not going to make it better if you just find a way to translate in lots of different languages because then you’re translating the words you’re not translating the you know the Viewpoint the frames of reference the knowledge
The different takes diversity it’s all about diversity you know everyone’s foreign accent is a part of diversity except that you’ll never end up ticking any boxes for it and so it kind of goes under the radar so you know it’s not an easy time for the west and the
Accusations are are strong um it was interesting the Home Secretary said uh that there shouldn’t be something along the lines of James cleverly I don’t know if you guys followed it that um you know there have been enough Palestinian Pro Palestinian protests and the point had been made I’m not sure that’s how
Protests work I think protests are about uh you know the point’s been made but you are showing your solidarity I I suppose or just want to highlight an issue that doesn’t mean that there aren’t some issues with some of the protests that we’ve seen there are but yeah but but
So I I don’t think the West will ever go back to how it was seen well maybe the how it wasn’t seen But we couldn’t hear the global South so we thought that we were all okay thank you okay so let me take the Ukraine and then the enlargement question so on on
Ukraine um yes indeed I mean you’re you’re absolute well firstly let me say uh a general point and then to your point about people uh and then then I’ll come to weapons as well um the general point is that I think for almost two years we assumed that the the choice was
Between continuation of a war and a compromise and I think it’s becoming clearer now that the choice is between Victory and defeat H and there isn’t this magical kind of compromise out there and it’s also not an option because of the way in which Russia has reorganized itself
Interally um in a manner going back to narratives yeah I mean at the beginning of the war this was a war against the sort of Ukrainian neo-nazis and it was about demilitarizing Ukraine basically now it’s a new version of the Great Patriotic War and this is a war against
The West this is not a war that ends in compromise right I mean this is a regime that requires a continuation of War for its own Survival so I think this is only beginning to sort of sink now and so the question is oh my God so what do we do
So I mean indeed you know I mean Ukraine’s running out of men and is running out of weapons now before we get to the I mean I don’t you know for all the sort of hoo-ha about MC’s uh uh remarks uh a couple of days ago I don’t
See Western troops kind of you know I mean maybe some things a bit of cber a bit of training but I mean I don’t see Western soldiers in the trenches Frankly Speaking um now but before we get to even thinking about that level of problem the real problem is a lack of
Weapons I mean the reason why um Ukraine retreated from aiva is because they didn’t have enough shells and so precisely because they’ve got also a a a human problem there right I mean a lack of people they’re not going to basically kind of leave people there to be
Slaughtered um given a lack of a lack of ammunition and so then the question becomes why why is there this lack of ammunition and the reason is that we just don’t produce the stuff right I mean we haven’t produced it this is the story about the peace dividend what were
Our defense Industries doing in the good old days of the liberal International order um they they weren’t preparing for war they were basically defense industries were largely becoming almost technological Industries in which they were producing a little bit of stuff you know not not huge quantities and sort of
High-end technological stuff right and hence the whole also issue of dual use and all the rest of it um and at most if really were to conceive of Wars what were the wars that they were conceiving of um it was the kind of expeditionary stuff it was the counterterrorism stuff
It was the wars in Africa it was about the Middle East it was not a territorial war in Europe yeah and so yes maybe you produced um jets but you didn’t really produce that much surface to air missiles that you didn’t really produce you certainly didn’t produce any
Ammunition um you know so you would be producing different kind of things and not huge quantities of them because you weren’t really preparing for Bo now then the question is yes but can’t we change yes of course we can change yeah and it’s incredible that we’re having this
Conversation now rather than two years ago um you I think there was one uh sort of uh two numbers that are really quite shocking over the last year um you know there’s been as I said there kind a big story of am sort of concerning ammunition and so the EU gets get
Together and says we’re going to provide Ukraine with a million rounds of ammunition over a year fail to do that we’re now getting up to 500,000 oh not bad 500,000 you know at the end of the day and then you’re like hang on a say North Korea has been you
Know this is the most amongst the most sanctioned countries in the world has been already provided Russia with a million and a half rounds and now I was reading this morning actually got another 3 million basically coming in so of course you could you know of course
27 of the richest countries in the world could be doing a lot more it’s just that they have to adapt their in defense Industries basically to do this and as I said you know it is shocking it’s happening now but and this is why I think 2024 is going to be such a
Critical year because the stuff is going to come in the question is it’s going to come in in 2025 is Ukraine going to hold the line over the course of this year and that’s I think the big question mark you know are the losses going to be abik
You know 20 kilometers here 20 kilm there or is there a risk of a collapse of the Ukrainian line of defense I think is you know I I’m relatively optimistic I think it’s more the former than the latter but the latter can’t be ruled out now coming to
To enlargement um a couple of observations there firstly um you’re right you know so I said instruments yeah and an instrument in a sense has within it the notion that and this was very much you know the literature of the 1990s the 2000s the idea that enlargement was um transformational it
Was about you know it was an instrument in so far as it provided incentives to transform democratize modernize candidate countries and in so far as it was doing this it was an instrument of foreign policy now enlargement now is back because we see the Strategic rationale for
Enlargement and in a sense if you’re doing this for a strategic reason it almost doesn’t matter as much how Democratic these countries are right it’s something you got to do regardless so you’re more inclined to kind of you know close an eye to maybe a little bit
Of corruption here and a little bit you know um now you know on the other hand you could say well if there wasn’t that strategic rational enlargement would be dead so how do you find a balance between these two sets of things I think that’s one interesting set of issues to
Look into but coming more specifically to your question which is really one about in a sense it’s the widening deepening right uh question I think what’s interesting is that it’s been turned on its head so um prior to the war in Ukraine um and especially when the so-called enlargement fatigue started
Sort of kicking in after 2007 how did that argument go um yes enlargement is very important of course we understand that you want to come in and you know we we’d love to have you in but I’m so sorry we’ve got to reform first you know and it’s all so terribly
Complicated to reform that you just need to wait right and of course those reforms never happened you know did we move towards qualified majority voting between 2007 and now no we didn’t right did we do the kind of reforms that presumably would make enlargement easier
No we didn’t um so it was an excuse right uh because we had lost that strategic uh sense of why enlargement is important now that strategic sense is back and so the reform enlargement question has been turned on its head and it goes something like this we now know
That we have to enlarge there’s no question about it so what are the reforms we really had to do in order to make it happen right what’s the best minimum that we have to do to make it happen and there I think you know what are the reforms that we’re talking about
Uh we’re talking about institutional reform so it’s about representation how many MEPS how many you know do are you going to have a commissioner or not so I would say that that is not heavy deepening right I mean it’s it is actually if you’re talking about what’s
The bare minimum that needs to happen that needs to happen then you get into the more interesting reforms yeah decision making the extension of qualified majority voting do we need to reopen up the treaties to what extent can we use you know the pasel Clause of constructive extension you know how can
We use things within the existing treaties now that’s definitely deepening if we go down that route and then you have probably the most interesting set of issues which have to do with policies and especially those policies that have a budgetary implication um if we’re going to take Ukraine well we sure will
Have to reform the common agricultural policy if take in Ukraine well we will need a far different and more significant EU level budget and given that all this has happening alongside the debates about um climate action about digital about having you know equipping the EU with an industrial
Policy these are all things that require money right so and and and hence the whole debate on the fiscal Union so you know I think we’re at an interesting stage in which if we manage to sort of capitalize on this moment then you can have a far more constructive deepening
Widening basically Nexus than the one that we’ve had so far thank you um unfortunately I we have to leave it at there um because they both have other commitments have to rush off but I would like to thank you both for s for enlightening us on uh what is
Going on in the world uh for debunking some Ms uh for explaining us how narratives are actually work um and I would like to thank the audience for being so attentive and asking such great questions and also to Sara my co- moderator uh for the other questions So thank you very much to everyone thank you to our speakers I think that we could have stayed here for three hours to listen to you um I just want to share a reminder we have at 615 the next panel of the Italian Symposium with Davida together with the
LCS private Society thank you very much okay see that always helps it would be lovely to interview on stage one day because I think you’re engl you’re a native speaker I’m I mean I’m Italian Italian I I basically live many years oh okay all Right