Hi it um it appears that we’re live so I’m going to start this session uh good afternoon Welcome to our transport planning society’s webinar on parking policy we’ve called it just a ticket and just a ticket is also the title of the TPS report that was mainly written by
Andrew po who’s with us today which contains 18 recommendations on how to use parking policy better to encourage Behavior change towards lower carbon travel uh the report is posted on the TPS website and you can also find there two accompanying documents one is an easyto read summary of our key
Recommendations and the other is an infographic that projects on an imaginary City how each of our recommendations could be implemented um as I said visit our website to find these three documents as the transport planning Society we are really really Keen to see our policy outputs used more in
Practice um speaking about TPS we are the only professional body in the country focusing entirely on transport planning we’ve got about 1,500 members we aim to facilitate develop and promote best practice in transport planning and promote and provide a f Focus for dialogue between all those engaged with
It within it um whatever the background or professional professional affiliation um my name is Tom vuran I’m currently TPS policy director uh my main employer is Amy where I am a strategic business partner and I’m also a visiting professor at the University of leads my main claim to transport planning Fame is
However that I write every month short article in my local vage Village newsletter about pothole of the month um in which I don’t just take a photo of another crater in her’s road but also post interesting facts about traffic and transport and my article on induced demand was particularly liked by my
Readers now I really wanted to produce this policy document on parking um like my old friend uh Glenn Lions I am incredibly frustrated by the lack of progress in the department for transports consultation on pavement parking which closed in November 2020 and should have had summary of responses
Published within three months which is obviously now three years ago I don’t think for a moment that this publication and this seminar will speed up the process but there are many other ways in which we can use parking policy to achieve a less car Centric Society and I think that would benefit everyone
And that’s what today is all about we’re running our webinars in a slightly different format this year so instead of three or sometimes even four speakers we only have two this should allow first of all every speaker to do justice to their subject and secondly it also should
Allow you as participants plenty of time for questions and answers and general debate on parking um and and and the policy of parking uh controls um we will try to catch your questions in the chat function um um so please please drop them in there um I’ve
Allocated 90 minutes in total but given that we’re all busy busy busy people I will aim to finish after about 60 to 75 minutes but let’s see how this pans out okay our speakers uh our first speaker is Andrew Potter he’s the MD of parking perspectives which is a
Consultancy that as the name suggests specializes in parking related advice uh Andre used to be a transport modeler but his attention these days is focused on generating parking demand forecast and providing car park estate planning advice to local authorities and governments um things that he focuses on
Is um post covid working changes in population internet shopping demands for bigger parking spaces and increasing concern about fire in Old the structures and the potential impact that AVS may have on how and where we park uh our second speaker is Alice Roberts who is head of campaigns at CPR
London uh CPR used to be known as The Campaign to protect rural England but now prefers to be known as the countryside charity uh Alice chairs the London healthy streets store scorecard Coalition and she campaigns on Green Space protection in particular as it relates to environment planning housing and transport
Issues um Alice has LED work in London to raise the profile of parking policy as one of the most important important and cost effective levers available to local authorities to tackle a range of social environmental issues both speakers have about 15 minutes maybe runs out a little bit later and then I
Will lead the discussion with both of both of them based on your questions and comments so Andrew over to you right Tom thank you hopefully everyone can hear me and I’m just going to share the screen so in the minutes I have I’m going to run you through the document that we
Produced it’s taken about two years uh I’d like to say it’s been a labor of love it’s been a labor of something certainly uh now let’s can move this on what spurned it was that the transport planning Society created in 2020 the state of the nation document
And the key element of that document was that if current travel patterns uh continued then there was no uh no significant change to creating sustainable future people needed to drive less and that call to our action really has been behind the just the ticket document around parking the
Reason parking is such a good policy Leever is that much of what is needed from parking is already in place the regulations the parking pricing the collection of fees the enforcement the debt recovery penalty charge notices and critically public acceptance that there is rules and regulations and charges associated with
Parking are already in place and parking affects most people across the country one way or another generally certainly parking in public locations has an impact on most people who drive it makes it a really easy tool rather than for example creating Road user charging or something like that honorable as they
May be but the fact is they are something that we don’t yet have in place in in a same sort of ubiquitous way if we do with parking the other thing about um the document is there’s 18 recommendations the plan is for it to uh hopefully influence government and others it’s
Written with a view that we’re here to transition people not not suddenly come with a cliffedge change in the way people live and and drive that probably is unworkable we recognize that um there is a need for people to migrate and get out of maybe 40 or 50 years years of
Land use planning that has created car dependen the recommendations are set out under three main headings um what we need from our planning laws is really reiterating what many local authorities are already doing it’s maximums and minimums the parking standards maximums for many locations that have already got
Good access to other means of travel uh minimums for other modes other than cars and that is in there because it was felt there’s a need to reiterate what what local authorities are often already doing and what policy was already in place because there is a vulnerability
And potential weakness that if we didn’t reiterate that um those in positions of influence and power might consider them to be unimportant so we’ve included a number of things in there just to uh carry on they’re good and they need to be done and used more making the use of
Space more Equitable is really driven around trying to change public attitudes as to whose responsibility it is for parking people’s own private cars uh fundamentally this whole section is looking at the misappropriation of public space for private use I parking private cars in public areas when it seemed that there isn’t enough parking
Provided and therefore it is a responsibility placed upon Society or the local Community or the local authority to provide that parking because somebody owns a car which is their own private vehicle and that whole element pervades through the Section around making parking space or making the use of space more Equitable to
Actually start raising the question as to should we be using that space for parking for people to park their private Vehicles when in fact that space could be used for other things and Alice is I’m not going to dwell on this because Alice is going to pick up on lots of
These issues and the third section we talk about environmental taxes and charges and fundamentally this is about some policy ideas around how we redress the situation whereby the polluter or the beneficiary the people driving start to pay a little bit more uh through the mechanisms we have in place already and
Through other ideas uh therefore to finance or make more attractive other modes of travel and effectively make the attractiveness gap between shall I drive or should I take some other mode of travel a lot closer and ideally even better to the point whereby I don’t think I’ll drive anymore it’s become a
Little bit too difficult a little bit too expensive uh for this particular Journey so I going to take the bus on the walk or cycle so what we have is uh our imaginary town and this is a big test as to whether the technology will will do it what it should
I’m just going to pick out two or three of the recommendations that are probably worth sharing as something that could be seen to be a little bit different or uh worthy of debate at the end of the session so the first one that we’ve talked about is around
Parking oh let done it again let’s see we looks like we we might be stuck in a continuous time Loop here here we are let work now um so we we certainly support the the use of Maximum car parking standards or new developments as a way of reducing car
Ownership over the long term and with that there needs to be on Street controls and other methods to stop people just just acquiring cars and then just dumping the problem on the rest of the community or Society all that’s embodied within the recommendations but he’s also recognizing that many people have more
Than than one car per household um we certainly don’t want to build that parking into the development by saying well people currently have more cars so uh let’s let’s not design this as the way we want it let’s just allow them to have three or four parking spaces
Because then they’re there forever and we we can never break the cycle of saying well you got less parking so own less Vehicles so instead we’re proposing something that we call parking Supply bridging which is effectively within the developments allocating space that for a period of time will will remain owned by
The local Authority and will provide parking for those extra vehicles that people have to have at the moment because of their Lifestyles and because of the way they need to get to work and all the rest of it but over time and ideally with a set
Time scale that piece of land and that facility will become removed but because it’s owned by the local Authority they control that and they can take it away at some point in the future moving on if I oh yeah it’s work it seems to be one of the other things
We’ve looked at is a situation and this has worsened since covid is that there are a number of towns of cities where there is actually more parking than is probably needed and we have instances in many towns and cities across the UK where multi-story car parks that are owned by
Third parties have move to a situation of trying to ensure they get the best commercial return from the from the location they’ll offer early bird lowcost deals for people parking in before the peak hour or during the peak and people staying there all day this makes commercial sense if
You’re carrying 200 spare spaces one at Phil up the5 pound at a time rather than just leaving it empty and the whole idea of the early bird is that you don’t don’t actually diminish your more lucrative short stay higher turnover market during during the day which can carry on charging at 1 152
Pound an hour or whatever it may be the problem with the early bird is that it’s actually undermining many of the measures the local authorities may be doing to increase the cost of uh long state parking increase the cost of parking for those who are traveling in Peak period
And certainly if you’re trying to run a park and ride and you’ve got one or two of these car Parks offering these very low discount rates your Park and Ride is very much being undermined uh to the point whereby people are just going say well I’m going to drive in why will I
Pay three pound to ride the bus when I can pay FIV and and parkle day right near my office so our proposal is to introduce or or to encourage local authorities to look at a piece of legislation that has has been around nearly 40 years and which allows them to license an
Area and all third parties within that area are subject to the license and must comply with the rules which could include things such as being told what pricing regime uh what minimum pricing they have to operate and it could apply to a Town Center or city center uh by the high highway
Authority that way things like the ear bird could be could be licensed out and not permitted and moving across here then to our next area of town we’re going to we include in there a couple of recommendations about things such as Burge parking pavement parking
Uh how the use of cars and their parking can be very detrimental to the Heritage and measures to try and enforce or or Elevate the responsibility of Highway authorities to prevent the misappropriation of public space where people progressively acquire cars and then start parking them in public areas get away with it it’s
Not dealt with and it’s to the detriment of the immunity and to other members of the public including and quite particularly uh pavement parking and the other thing I want to mention is utility pricing which is a concept of understanding where the benefit and the costs come when somebody
Parks so when somebody drives into a town center for example or city center the reason they drive is because they enjoy the comfort and the speed primarily the speed and the utility if you like of being able to drive their car into the town center and park it
Close to where they want to be and when they leave that town center they also gain and enjoy the benefits of their their personal car offers them while the car is parked they’re not really deriving huge benefit um that’s not what the parking does the parking enables
Them to drive and that’s the bit that they derive the benefit or the utility from when we look at the cost to society while that car is parked with the engine off it’s not really having a lot of damage to anyone certainly not hurting the environment not not in a
Marginal sense and it’s really actually when the car is being driven into the town center and out that the costs are incurred adds to congestion creates risk to vulnerable Road users potentially causes Severance noise uh pollutants these sorts of things so what utility pricing is suggesting is that we stop
Charging for duration of stay which I know has been the mainstream way and the accepted way for years is but actually that is where the benefits or the costs come we start charging based on the time that somebody arrives at a car park and the time they leave as a proxy for
Actually the costs that they’re imposing on society so long as that car park isn’t full if the car park becomes full then the duration of stay has a cost because actually prevents somebody else from parking there and that that’s a dis utility to society but if a car park
Isn’t full then there’s argument saying duration is irrelevant and we should L Ladle all the costs onto the time of Entry so if they come in in the peak hour we we effectively create a proxy congestion charge because they’ve driven in if they drive out in the peak Peak
Evening again the charge will be there if they drive during the middle of the day and they’ve come into a town center by accessing during the middle of the day perhaps there’s there’s a severance charge that we apply because if they come in between 10: and 400 p.m. that
Action means that the street is less pedestrian friendly and people can’t move around in in the shopping area they might wish to and that I’m going to move away from there is oh here we go we finally finally flying out so as Tom mentioned these two Graphics are summarized on the
TPS uh website we’ve got we’ve got them on our website as well and the 18 recommendations are listed out there you can call out boxes for a for a quick easy read hopefully my last slide what’s next uh well the plan is that this document uh can be submitted to key decision makers
To try and influence and perhaps change some fundamental thinking uh and helping the campaign helping the position TPS take to decarbonize transport in the UK we’d also like it to stimulate debate and we’d also be very interested if there’s any uh authorities who are doing these things or planning to do them or
Have done very similar things that would be of great value to add to the discussion thank you very much excellent Andrew and um that was an impressive use of um of that um infographic that you that you created for us as well um I enjoyed that a lot
Um Alice can I hand over the microphone to you hi thanks everybody so um yeah I’m Alice Roberts I’m from CPR London and also chair the London healthy Street scorecard as Tom said um and so I just want to talk brief to start with about
Why um we talk about parking a lot um but just to say to start with that um that the reason I’m here today is because we’ve done a lot of work around parking policy um which relates obviously mainly to London but um but does have um use for any Authority local
Authority in the country and I suppose that while Andrew comes at this from a particular perspective um we come at it from a slightly different perspective which is all about sustainable transport um and for us particularly uh spatial issues so um so we talk about a lot of
The same things but some from a slightly different angle I suppose uh this is a picture of my outside my house in London I’ve got a park lit so just some flower beds in the road which Hackney Council allowed me to do about five years
Ago so um the the parking action tool is where you can find the um The Benchmark policy that we’ve created and you can look through everything that I talk about today or most of what I talk about today this publication this presentation is is online and um I I think uh it will
Be put in the chat where I keep it so you can come back to it it’s quite long so I’m just going to um go through certain slides certain slides more quickly than others um and you can always come back to it the intention is
It for here for anybody to come back to but also go to the parking action tour where you can kind of which is intended as a way to kind of assess assess local Authority parking policy against um a benchmark which probably is uh you know is an ambitious Benchmark
Deliberately so the these are the contents I don’t I’m not going to go through all of them this is just so that when and if you come back to it you can navigate through it quickly so I’ve added in this bit recently this was just to make a bit clearer why the
Countryside charity might be talking about parking so I just thought since Andrew um told me he came from chelsford hailes from chelsford I thought well I’ll look at chelsford shall I and I looked at it it was really interesting because um I thought well that’s a town
That is quite small it should be you know to an extent walkable cyclable and certainly should be um easy to navigate with public transport um yeah there’s quite a lot of space in the middle which is given to car parking which of course promotes car parking but also is um
Space is space which could be used for other things at the same time you have this development and very interestingly Google satellite view shows the land before it was developed like this so you can see all the street layouts but this is right on the edge of chelsford and so
You can see that before the development this was all productive land Farmland mainly by the look of it this is what it is now so instead of the bridging areas that Andrew was talking about you’ve got houses which are essentially car dependent where the car
A lot of space has been given to car parking and in fact they even have garages which I which I was really interested to see so yeah if that doesn’t make clear the links between Countryside loss and parking I don’t know what does but um but obviously you
Know come back to me if you need more so um why does parking matter there so many reasons primarily it’s about um promoting mod shift um and also healthier travel choices but it’s also a a lot to do with the amount of space that we give to parking so it’s really
About those spatial issues that um that we care about um there are other issues obviously like Road casualties and safety about our Urban realm um even about economic recovery um about Countryside which I’ve just mentioned and also something that Andre mentioned which is about delivering fair use of
Public space um and particular in areas like in in a London where something like two-thirds of households don’t have access to a car um and indeed the majority the vast majority of trips are not made by car and yet so much space is taken up by private car parking so those
Two slides just kind of repeat what I’ve said just there so time for change this is really just about saying that um as Andrew mentioned it’s one of the most effective tools local authorities can use um but actually what we we don’t see huge ambition in using parking policy to
Tackle serious issues like for instance climate change or air pollution so that’s why we’ kind of started to think about creating this Benchmark this is a graph that I used to show the kind of V variability within London of um Ambitions around parking policy um the light blue colored ones
Are in a London and dark blue out of London so this is the proportion of of space which is controlled for parking in the Barrow so you can see there are a number of authorities which control all of their streets now but if you look down there lewisham which is an in a
London Barrow only 20% of its streets have controlled parking so that’s a kind of you know fundamental number one isue are you controlling parking if you’re not you’re effectively enabling um car Journey mode shift so local authorities have probably more Powers than most people think around parking so obviously it’s the
Local Highway local traffic Authority the managers of housing Estates often not always but often um they can own or operate public car Parks they are the local planning Authority the transport Authority and they may well of course be an employer with workplace parking too so there are lotss of ways that they
Can influence parking um we talked a bit about land use planning and actually it’s interesting that Andrew talked about bridging because I haven’t put that in this presentation yet but I’m going to add it in I’m always adding things into this presentation but um the most important thing is that planning
Documents local plans are underpinned by sustainable transport plan um planning sorry housing needs to be planned at appropriate density so that we we know that for instance you can’t support a bus service EV um unless you’re building at around 100 dwellings per hectare and not below 60 um the parking standards
Again Andrew mentioned that you know in London we have a starting point of Carree development but I don’t think there are any other buroughs or councils or or planning authorities in the country which have adopted that um and of course we need to be looking at redeveloping surface car parks and
Preferably even multi-use uh sorry multi story car parks at some point so yeah parking’s at the heart of land use planning um and I think it basically is summarized by if you plan for cars you get cars um so we’re you know on the side of the compact City
With green belt um and what we don’t want is urban spool and and that’s that’s why we talk about car parking so this is my great example stevenage um those are surface toox in stevenage the the insect picture is stevenage which looks to be roughly the size of chelsford actually you know it’s
Eminently walkable cyclable and public transportable if you like and it has buil-in cycling infrastructure and yet the Town Center is just one big surface car park so the orange squares there are surface car parking so we’re just kind of peret so yeah perpetuating unsustainable patterns of development M this is a slide about
Density um I’m just going to skip through this these are some pictures of surface car parks in London um one which was going to be developed that’s fallen through now um this is the example of parking standards in the London plan so that you can refer to that Um this is about the parking hierarchy I’m just get through this bit and parking Audits and charges so we do talk a lot about charges but I didn’t want to talk about that too much today reports and finances is obviously councils have to so that you can uh look through some of
Them for instance hackes and see that they support Um oh I hope I haven’t Frozen my um okay hopefully um so the that they support concessionary fars for example in Hackney um and parking charges are very important you are allowed to use funding from parking to uh fund other forms of um transport action sustainable transport action
That’s really important and I kind of feel like that’s a a trick that many councils are missing so that sets out the powers and this is this section talks about control parking zones which I’m not going to talk about a great deal but that’s uh some pictures
Of um what happens before and after controlled parking has been introduced so in this one it’s actually a housing estate but um this was being used for commuter parking and when they put in control parking just disappeared this is a housing state where there is no controlled parking and
And this um just shows how space gets appropriated for parking essentially and that again is something that I think Andre’s picture showed but this is a kind of real life picture uh where Pavements get taken over and so forth obviously we don’t support pavement parking that should be um got
Rid of immediately everywhere this is a really good example um accessibility so one of the things that we talk about is Pavements and keeping Pavements clear but there are other reasons why parking is obviously very important to um accessibility and one is about pavement crossovers uh one is about um keeping
Pavements clear but another one is about how um sorry it’s not on this page but it’s about how there should be uh gaps in parking approximately every 100 meters but that’s very rarely um adhered to to so that people in a wheelchair or or even somebody with a buggy can cross
The road safely without having to go the whole distance of the road if there is parking the whole way along the road so we talk a lot about front garden parking and private land as well so front garden parking causes all kinds of problems uh for the environment but they
Also cause problems for Pavements and increasingly are causing overhanging onto Pavements with uh bigger cars so we’ve got a lot of stuff in here about tackling front garden parking problems um this is a picture of where you see uh four cour parking in front of shops which again has its own issues
Which um ideally would be got under better control kind of take over space and then it ends up being used for workplace parking Without Really any kind of actual agreement or policy to do so and so we kind of say well you know if you’re in
An inner London Barrow like this is in Hackney that’s where I come from so lots of my pictures from Hackney um that you know as an authority you should be you know trying to keep that under control there’s a lot of reasons why parking links to improving the public
Realm but also supporting the local economy so there’s a whole section here on that so this is an example just of a street so improving the street scene by uh removing certain amount of parking and putting in some trees that’s a before and after um this is a historic setting
Somerset house before it was a car park and now it’s obviously a very lovely public space um The Pedestrian pound uh living streets pedestrian pound obviously deals with how um making spaces you know prioritized for pedestrians actually can help improve local economies and footfall for local shops um often it’s
Felt that removing parking will kill off business business is and there but but there’s a lot of most of the evidence points in the other direction which is that if you make a space nice for pedestrians and um yeah that that actually helps local businesses so this is another way to
Help local business which is that you can you know give them a bit of space that they can rent effectively on the curbside and here’s uh a link to some Town Center before and afters uh which you can peruse at your own time um and then just quickly about
Safety I’m just I’m going going to go over time a minute so I’m going to skip through this quickly so that’s an example of how parking was removed from one side of the street to um to make it safer and you can see that there was even a school
There um keeping Pavements clear there’s such a massive link between Pavements and and parking so what we say is you know all this stuff that usually gets dumped on a pavement including trees and but we we don’t say that you shouldn’t that you should chop trees down but you
Can build around them so the picture on the right shows how that’s been done in one street but um if you want to put in new trees they should be on build outs in the road or they can be in in in a rain Garden or a sustainable Urban
Drainage system so this shows how even parking signs get dumped on the pavement and they create a a obstruction for pedestrian so I just I just took that little picture there for the parking permit resident holder that um that was used for this um seminar as it’s on this fence and not on
A greetly to the right um to try to stop a um an obstruction on the pavement um electric vehicle charging points should not be on the pavement they should be taking space from car parking bins can be put in the road not taking space from pedestrians and you can also create
Parklets you can put rain Gardens where they used to be parking you can take an entire Street and turn it into a park you can put cycle hangers obviously you can create space for cycle dockless cycle parking so that they’re not left all over the Pavement and you can even create a cycle Lane as in this before and after picture bus lanes this is not a before and after but it’s two streets one where parking has been removed to create a bus Lan and one which has two very busy bus routes in central London but still has
No bus loans and has parking and you can create space for um car share so that’s an example of lambo’s curbside strategy which links to parking obviously if anybody wants to look at it and of course it’s not just about parking it’s also about all kinds of other things but
Today we’re focusing on parking and so yeah that’s it parking is key there’s time for change is now councils can do things right now and that’s it so I’m sorry I ski through that super quickly but it’s as I said it’s very much there for you to go back to and
Hopefully you now have the link thank you thanks thanks Alice so the link to that document uh will be in the chat I hope I haven’t got control over the chat so hopefully Brogan or um somebody else we’ll put it there um uh that’s great we’ve got least um 20
25 30 minutes for questions and answers I don’t see any yet in the uh in my chat so I’m going to start um both speakers off with a question of my own so so Andrew I find um utility pricing really interesting it makes an awful lot of
Sense to me how disruptive will it be you think for a council to try this out and and and and this is worthwhile doing right well uh we we don’t know anyone who has done this but we have created a model an illustrative example for some a local
Authority we working with and what we did is we created four or five charge matrices if you like so the The Matrix is time of Entry time of departure and they were in blocks uh so it’s like a 5×5 Matrix uh where we we’re putting in the standard
Time and in each each box we came up with a notional charge that we felt should be applied for each of the things that we looked at we looked at congestion Severance um go remember some of the other things we uh let’s just start with those to oh and there was
Duration of stay because this car park was deemed to be a car park that would be full between 10 and 4 so we also had a time of stay chart in there because at that time that was uh that was relevant duration of stay was also relevant
Charge and when we applied all the costs together because they basically accumulate and count and you you add them together when we did that we ended up with charges that were not dissimilar to what people making those sorts of Journeys were currently making so someone who came in in in a weekday
Morning and went in the evening was being hit with the congestion charge was also being hit by the duration of stay charge in the middle of the day um they were paying about seven or eight pounds and somebody who was coming into the shops coming into the Town Center for 90
Minutes let’s say who was coming in at 10:00 and leaving at 11:30 12 they were they weren’t being hit by any of those charges but they were being subject to the duration of stay charge and some Severance charges which notionally was causing them to to pay two or three
Pound for their trip so the the thing about it was that to answer your question about how disruptive this was uh it it could be introduced without the public feeling as though much had changed they’d be paying pretty much what they already had and it wouldn’t feel
Untoward the beauty of it would be is that once the mechanism in place and people understood what they were being charged for if a local Authority starts to ramp up the importance of its strategic objectives around the environment whatever then the environmental charges start to increase
And the mechanism is in place for that to happen and so so that that kind of is the the value behind utility charging is that it’s starts to get a new mindset which aligns much better to the Strategic objectives and arguably the challenges that we have in the
Future yeah what what I actually like in that and although I’m not quite sure whether you know well we as transfer planners get this but whether everybody else gets it as well in terms of linking linking the the as it were the value or the multiplier to what your strategic
Objectives are whether they are dealing with congestion whether they’re dealing with environment whether they dealing as you say with um um Severance um you can you can start changing that I presume in the end people will see the absolute value of what they pay uh and hopefully that will
Then actually lead to the behavior change that that we’re looking for because as as you were saying in the beginning people roughly pay what now well will pay the same as what they pay now I don’t expect any Behavior change and of course that is one of the things
That the document tries to set out is we can achieve Behavior change by using some something as simple and available as parking policy yeah I mean if I can add Tom I mean one thing we don’t mention in utility pricing because it’s a it’s a
New line on this is um if within there there are different regimes of charging because of the type of vehicle that people are operating certainly towards larger and heavier vehicles and potentially the the carbon they generate then uh that could be linked in so much that of course charging now wouldn’t change
But in due course as the multipliers for those sorts of vehicles that may not be seen to be favorable for the environment increase then it does start to cause people to make choices around what sort of vehicles they operate and and own I ARG with yeah yeah okay I’ve got a question for
Alice there’s some questions coming through in the uh in the chat but I need to have time to actually read them um you you’re obviously your examples as you yourself said are mainly from London uh most of the country is not like London um most transport planets seem to
Live in London um um or other big cities uh and for many others um access to public transport is poor cycling facilities almost non-existent and people feel that they that they’re basically reliant on cars so how how relevant is a parking policy for other parts of the country and and
How does it need to differ from the kind of examples that you gave for for the for a London context yeah I mean I think for me it’s about you know if you know assuming that there is a desire to shift away from car use um then parking is a very very good
Place to start so you’re you’re never going to be able to change anything if you don’t want to if you like so you know if if we we have a choice I think we continue with car-based planning and Urban Fringe development which is car dependent where we have parking
Standards of two or three or one and a half or two whatever it is um if we continue in that direction it’s going to be very hard to ever change anything so I think fundamentally you have to actually want to change obviously but if you want to do that
Then parking is very a very very good place to start partly because you can start to control Town Center car parking without necessarily controlling residential parking and that will uh that will impact on a certain number of trips um and it will start to help to support bus services again so or cycling
Or whatever ever it is so yes you need the carrot and the stick but you have to start somewhere so that’s why I I kind of feel like parking is is hugely relevant to every town and certainly City Center every town and city in the country really I mean obviously in rural
Areas things are going to be different um but I think in towns which are the size uh of most I I think Alice we’ve just lost you car centered everything not it’s not just new development I think the other thing that I that I think you know the
One thing we haven’t mentioned is the people without cars and um I publish this these stats quite often not just for London because obviously in London in central London in inner London it’s 2third of households are without a car but in outer London is still a third and
In most other parts of the country you’re still looking at rough fifth so that that’s going to be different obviously in lck but um you know some uh usually it’s older people younger people and people on low incomes who are impacted by having no access to public transport they can’t get anywhere
So I think you know there’s a there’s a huge social Equity issue there as well yes social Equity course will will will need to come from the Alternatives that are available rather than the the car not being available uh orbit the car being um it made being made more difficult for
People to come into into town centers by cars I’m glad to see I’ve got some questions coming through I’m going to take um uh Anthony Plum asking um can you say a little more about controlling non-residential private parking and why were workplace parking levies have not been adopted by
Most local authorities Andrew maybe there’s one for you um with respect to workplace parking levies I don’t know why more haven’t been adopted it seems to be uh it seems to be one of the Mysteries because Nottingham obviously pioneered it and it’s been a great success for
Then for them I think they can demonstrate how it hasn’t killed their economy they can also show that it reduced the amount of parking spaces within the within the charged area by 25% which was a a great achievement of the objective and it’s funded their well helped fund their tra extensions so it
Does seem it it does seem I I I don’t know seems amazing to me that more cities have not have not done this yeah fair enough answer Andrew and and I’m with you on that myself um and maybe there are people online drop drop a note say well I know
Reasons why you know my local Authority has tried and it failed whether that was political or commercial or or whatever um Alice one for you from Ellie Savage um have you experienced parking policy getting drawn into the culture wars the war on the motorists and how would you
Try to respond or avoid and deal with that yeah I mean that’s very firmly right in there I mean every counselor I’ve ever met has said you won’t get me talking about parking in the runup to an election or pretty much ever so yes it is firmly in there so I think
It’s just you know it’s not something that you that I would ever expect a politician to go out on an election platform for but it is something that I would you know say they can introduce I mean it’s a really important part of what councils do so there it is it
Doesn’t have to be political but you can change things you can the the other way that I try to talk about this is to talk about the positive so actually people really quite like areas which are not dominated by car parking um you know there is a positive side to this and all
Of those bits that I put in the presentation about public realm or Urban realm um you know you just look at them and they’re so much nicer um I know John Burke counselor used to be a happy counselor tweets about things a lot and one of the things he said was you know
We always go on holiday to these nice towns and cities in Europe where they have a No Parking in the town center and you know why are they nice well because they’re not car parks and uh so I think there’s a lot to say there’s a lot
Positive to say um there’s a huge amount that’s positive now about things like managing uh rainwater managing pollution with um on on Street rain Gardens and in introducing habitat within towns and cities particularly where there’s a massive gray you know the very over gray towns or town centers just to make them
Much nicer spaces to be so so yeah I think focus on the positive but but also yeah just you know do it as part of your business and do it incrementally and do it um do it bit by bit okay that that that leads me nicely on to and I’m to
Stay with you here Alice where too and a question that Ash Kirk would ask and I think many people that are sort of against sort of removing parking so after parking is removed for a bus lane or for other reason you parklets and so so where where where do cars get parked
Then is it is it just moving the problem away and I think we we said something about it Andrew can come back on that as well in our in our document but this will be I think the the a key issue to to have to have to deal with if you take
Away parking spaces now and and people do not change the number of cars that they own then in the end the the problem will be moved away what what what what would you say to that well I I mean I think you you the one who the article on
Induced demand which I’m going to go and read but I think uh it’s the opposite isn’t it so if you take away you you do the opposite to inducing demand you reduce demand um with with Main Road parking which might have been for loading it is obviously important to make sure that
Businesses can still load but there are two ways of dealing with that one is to uh create loading Bays on side streets um the other is to create loading Bays which only operate outside of bus uh bus lane time scales if it’s for people to come park and shop then uh arguably you
Shouldn’t be you know allowing that or you should be getting rid of it all together or you should be uh creating paid parking Bays on side streets so we’ve seen I’ve seen that happen as well so hopefully that answers that question Andrew do you want to yeah I um
I’m just looking at the the question about research I’m sure there are bits and pieces around this but but off the top of my head I’ll give my view on this I think two things happen um people do move the cars elsewhere in the short term maybe over the longer term those
People move elsewhere if they’re really wed to using their cars because it becomes inconvenience so they so you have a self- selection as to who lives in those streets over time and perhaps these are the people who go and buy themselves a Suburban house with three a
Large driveway um but I also think that there’s an element of people find it less convenient this is all a case of progressively making the attractiveness of walking out of my front door and there is the car and I can get in it and go to where I
Want to to oh I’ve got to walk five or six minutes away to get it because I’ve had to park it somewhere else and when I come back I’m going to have to hunt for somewhere to park it starts to make using other modes more attractive it’s a
Bit coercive but I think it has an impact in that those people who uh would own cars or may own two cars actually start to think about whether they need the second one and and it does Drive beh behavioral change in time yes um it is as as many people
Comment also in the chat this it is it it will be slowly slowly catchy Monkey kind of situation and and it is um it is as you said in your your first example Andrew also around recognizing that people can’t change their behavior immediately so providing alternatives to
Those car those car parking spaces in the short term without without being you know committed to providing that forever um which leads me to sort of a a very simple question um and then I’ll go back into the the chat to sort of read what everybody else has said are is on Street
Plus uh surface car parking the Real Enemy uh or is it is it is it not as simple as that I just read that there are 3 to8 parking spots per car in the US I don’t know what the number is in the UK Andrew you might know that but
Looking at what what Alice was showing at it’s not just about parking cars it’s also taken a really valuable space and you could deal with that by multi-story car Bo Andrew can you sorry sorry sorry Tom I missed the question why did you miss
Look we have to have to say it all again now basically okay in in summary are surface car parks and on Street caring car parking the real the real issue both actually in terms in town centers but also in uh at people’s homes at the beginning of the trip rather than at the
End of the trip um or is it it’s how we solve it by multi-or car Parks or is it is it is it more fundamental oh okay uh I I think the issue of space is is probably separate to going back to what the TPS were driving out in 2020 when they did
The state of the nation that was about if we are to create a sustainable future we need to decarbonize transport and the driver there was saying fundamentally people had to drive less so I think if we keep that clear as the objective which is we do need people to drive less
And whether it’s a multistore car park or a surface car park the surfac is the issue of the surface and and the things that Alice is showing us in there is how cars actually make other modes of Transport potentially more difficult and make it make it harder to
Transition but the fundamental is that we actually need to be able to drive less because of the car impacts and also and also the financial um viability of public transport is made more difficult if you have a lot of um space given to car parking even if it’s in
Multistory and Chris bu said say is’s absolutely right on that you the design of car parks where um private cars will be prioritized and and coaches are further at the back uh or or even offsite and um that in itself will well as were penalize that as an alternative
Mode I’m sure there are other examples that you can come up with where this is happening as well so yes I I do hear what you say that you know cars and parked cars have an impact on the attractiveness of Alternatives and it could even be walking uh and and
Actually being able to walk instead of taking the car um let me see what else I’ve got um I was I was just going to wonder about this is really interesting question about control parking zones um okay you can take any question you like Alex well it’s a really interesting
Point which is that does creating a controlled parking Zone confer kind of ownership of that space by private car owners and I I think that’s a really interesting point isn’t it and um I I don’t think there’s a really straightforward answer to this but I definitely feel like it should be
Recognized but I I also kind of feel like well if you’re allowing front garden parking then you’re allowing that space in front of that house is is a driveway now and that’s all that can be used for forever so there there are kind of you know swings and roundabouts aren’t there
But ultimately if you control parking obviously it makes it harder for people to make short car trips or a certain type of car trip um but I think that you have to be super careful about how you introduce controlled parking zones and um so that they don’t
Have unwanted impacts and one of those might be that um that you yeah that you overc create um parking residential parking um and that you don’t allow space to be used for other things so I think there’s kind of be got to be a kind of sensible
Transition in there and I think you know if you’re not in an area where controlling parking in residential areas is going to make a lot of difference then the focus probably needs to be on destination parking yeah I like I like that I like that thinking I think um there are two
Ends of a of a of of a car trip and and and maybe in some cases it’s the it’s the destination end that where your your your your greatest abilities is to change uh behavior and particularly change car the attractiveness car as an alternative and in other places it has
To be the um the home end you the the origin end particular I guess in in locations where parking is at premium in in dens urban areas and where there are alternatives to to take in the car Andrew have you got any thoughts on
That uh can I say no at this stage uh you can say no okay in which case I’m going to take the next question unless you were reading carefully about which other which question you wanted to pick out of the chat rather than me desperately trying to do justice to all
These questions that are coming coming through so quick and fast um Andrew Dorian could you possibly say something about the impending challenge of available curbside space for EV charging specifically for residential charging and the roll out of the levy low emission vehicle I don’t know what Levy
Investment is so how do you see us deal with with that particular issue of of increasing demand for uh EV charging uh and and and the impact on parking uh so I’ll I see the word challenge in there and I think that there are a number of challenges which
Uh Andrew is no doubt recognizing or what I me what one of the one of the big things I see about trying to introduce uh EV charging on Street in the residential context is that the is that you generate this potential of privilege um if you have a street where
There’s 10 houses and they’re currently competing for eight parking spots let’s say with their cars and then you say well one of those spots is going to be for electric charging and of course only one of those residents has an electric car they’ve effectively been granted this guaranteed parking spot for
Themselves and from a social point of view social economic point of view we can guess that the the early adopters of the electric car are likely to be the better off or those who’ve had it provided by their their company so there’s a there’s a funny social Equity
Thing here around that and it’s a big it’s a big challenge not and I’m ignoring things about cables trailing across the road and and how you manage it so I don’t have a stream of ances to this I recognize that there’s there’s probably more challeng is that if
Andrew’s been dealing with this he’s probably aware of more than than I am in terms of some of the the political issues and the the local community issues uh it to my mind the the the focus perhaps needs to be on providing uh electric charging and supporting the adoption of electric
Vehicles with those who have their own off Street charging and that probably should be the place where we focus efforts first uh some might disagree I dare say well that’s what we here for to disagree I think Andrew um because it’s a thorny issue um I think we we have we have seen
A wave of a new wave of front garden conversions because it’s cheaper to charge electric vehicles and that from our point of view that’s disastrous environmentally because you’re you’re you know you’re trying to build rain Gardens to take rain water runoff and yet more more more gardens are being
Converted and even though they’re supposed to have permeable surfacing doesn’t actually usually after a few years you know it’s compacted or full of stuff and so it doesn’t so unless surfacing is genuinely permeable you’re you’re still creating a problem and EV charging is going to add
To that problem so so we are wondering if pavement gullies uh is one way to tackle that um but yeah it’s definitely a thorny problem and we’ve certainly seen at least one bar in London make conversions of front guns easier because of um a wave of move to front to electric
Vehicles Richmond which uh has you know quite a wealthy borrower so lots of people with EVS is obviously not such a massive issue where people don’t have the money to buy them yes got some other thoughts about that but let’s let’s have a look um at
Some more question I think the um Dan Dan fril and Jeremy Galilee I think pick up um sort of the same kind of Point around maximum um parking standards uh yeah we all think as transport planners you know they they obviously make a lot of sense in
Reality um they they have caused quite a lot of problems in in in Estates uh that were built with minimum with maximum parking standards and cars being abandoned everywhere including obviously on the pavement and alternative just Jeremy is saying will it actually lead to rather than uh more opportunities for more
Sustainable alternative is is basically uh squeezing more and dener housing into um into into the same space because you don’t provide parking spaces anymore Andrew how do you how do you see that work work itself out yeah I think absolutely right I mean the the the the
2000s with the ppg-1 13 we you can almost go around the country now and spot those residential developments that were built under that regime and uh I was I was party to working with Essex County Council years ago around asking residents what they thought about their new neighborhoods when they when they
Moved in and parking was one of the biggest and almost only point of conflict and disappointment they had about their their new their new living standards uh so greed it’s a problem um I mean it it stems to some extent about our attitude and the community’s attitude towards what somebody does with
A car if if we have created maximum parking standards at the residential end and people choose to own more vehicles and they have space to park them then what we see is that people start putting them on the pavement and in other public space and that is largely accepted or
Tolerated and perhaps one of the moves needs to be is to change public attitude and this isn’t a quick fix by any means but we it goes back to some of the things we’re talking about if that was deemed to be unacceptable and addressed immediately and quickly and promptly
Then people wouldn’t do it that’s the first thing uh and this the second thing is um linked to that I think one of the adages I heard from a guy called Paul barter who lives out in South Singapore and writes quite a lot about these sorts
Of issues he said that um if you can control overspill use maximums if you can’t use minimums and I thought it was quite a pragmatic bit of advice really in that respect and so it goes back to me asking the question we we need if
We’re going to do it we need to control we need to control the overspill yeah yeah I think I think there been really interesting discussion around this that there are always considerations that say well you the one size fit all doesn’t work but there are alternative way of
Thinking about it um and I think certainly you know the um they say when is a minimum the right thing to do when is a maximum the right thing to do um do we aim at the at the home end or at the destination end uh and and and and
Everybody on the there is a lot about uh about these kind of considerations in the report so so please um pick that up which to some extent I know there are more questions but I do suggest um we we’re aiming at an end I haven’t had lunch myself yet anyway so
I’m getting rather hungry so um the first thing I was going to say was please after this uh seminar go and visit uh our TPS website where um these documents are available to you and let us know if you are uh finding them useful and how you may be using them or
How you might uh want to add to the 18 recommendations that we have put in there um let me uh uh thank Alice and Andrew for their presentations and answering your and my questions today so if you can find that clapping hand thing somewhere on here you can even give a
Clap as well um let me come on guys let me see those clapping hands I don’t see them maybe um then I want to thank Brogan Brogan mcferson for organizing this and for you attending I hope you find it useful and interesting um and then finally for those of you that are
TPS members on the 7th of March we will hold our AGM online 6: p.m. and uh at 700 p.m. uh will petley from Oxfordshire will give his transport planner of the Year lecture and again details are found on our website um so with that um I’m going to
Say goodbye thank you for attending and um enjoy the rest of your afternoon