4th Latin American SDEWES Conference 2024 , Vina del Mar, Chile – Day 3 (16.1.2024.) – Invited Lecture: Prof. Ingo Stadler “Will power-to-X change the global economy – and will South America power the world?”
Um good afternoon everyone um I think we can get started with with this keynote presentation which is going to be about power tox uh in the global economy it will be given by Professor inos tadler who is a researcher and a teacher at the University of applied science in uh
Cologne in Germany uh and his topic is uh mostly on renewable energy integration and energy economics um Professor Stadler his PhD at the University of Castle also in Germany and now as I said is in Cologne also involved in the colog renewable energy uh Institute um his work focuses on grid
Integration uh and also what we will see and which I think is very interesting uh non-electric storage and load management um so also since we are in South America it’s also useful to mention that he’s involved in various projects in Brazil he has been involved for more than 20 years uh in particular
With the University of fortalesa and on a more personal note I have to say that uh I remember a presentation from Ingo back in 2011 uh I think and by the time I think it was the most convincing presentation I’ve seen on sector coupling it was so convincing that it
Has become one of my research topic uh since then so uh Ingo please the floor is yours and let’s give let’s give him a warm Applause [Applause] thank you very much syan but don’t say that that was in 2011 it shows how old I am and yeah um good morning ladies and
Gentlemen here in the in V Delmar and also welcome to those who are listening via the St YouTube channel here life I hope so and when you look to my first slide you might want wonder about that strange photo I thought which illustration could I take for that title
With power tox and South America and then ah why not asking artificial intelligence and I entered the title into the dream studio.com and that was the result that is what artificial intelligence thinks is power tox uh and how it does change the global situation and I thought
I don’t understand that but then I looked closer and it looks a bit Mystic it even looks a bit religious and sometimes when I go to hydrogen events in my country I also have the impression oh it’s more religion than science and you meet people there who more look uh
Who follow the smell of the money than really look for technology and so maybe this artificial intelligence also was in some of those hyrogen events in my country but uh to Summer up to sum up uh my talk I would say the only thing we know for sure is that we don’t know
Anything for sure and when I came I dropped in in this hydrogen topic more accidentially so I my job is a bit different but I needed to work a lot with these topics and then I read a lot of studies on hydrogen and hydrogen demand in my country and uh
Looking for the hydrogen demand in the year 2050 and then we see some Studies have a very high demand and others have a low demand and there’s even a factor of four in between and we really do not know what will really happen in the future
How much hydrogen we really need and I think that’s the reason there is competitors to hydrogen and when we look at our Energy System we have the electricity sector the heat sector the gas sector the chemistry sector Mobility sector and we have storages everywhere it’s not only hydrogen we have
Electricity storages like batteries we have heat storages like just hot water or we have gas storages today it’s natural gas maybe but in the future that might be the hydrogen and for sure we can produce chemical products in store them and in the mobility sector we have today mainly liquid storages but in
Future maybe also battery storages and also gas storages and now when we talk about the sector coupling for sure we can use electricity and produce for example with a heat pump heat and then store the Heat and not using electrical storages or we can charge our ecars and
Have the storage there and maybe uh also can use the storages in the cars for the electric sector optimization and then for sure we could produce hydrogen and store the hydrogen and the hydrogen then could go in the heat sector in the chemical sector in the transport sector and for sure we
Talk about power to chemicals and also maybe power to liquids so A beautiful colorful world and even when we have a high caloric heat we even could go back uh to the electricity sector but what is that great with hydrogen hydrogen you can do everything hydrogen
Is fantastic you can go and produce heat you can go and produce electricity back again you can do power to chemicals you can use that in the transport sector and there’s even much more big and that is we even can do trading with hydrogen and hydrogen products so what can we say
Hydrogen is fantastic It’s a Wonderful World maybe not from Louis Armstrong but uh hydrogen is the new wonderful world but is it really that wonderful uh or maybe when looking at the hydrogen hype is it just another pick that is being chased through the village and this hype maybe will tear
Down in a few years I don’t know definitely it is a hype uh almost every country in the meantime has a hydrogen strategy uh the European Union has a hydrogen strategy my country has a hydrogen sty every state in my country has a hydrogen strategy and there are
Extremely much studies on hydrogen and all those that I showed the cover pages are written in German when I put here English studies uh the space would not be uh sufficient for that and then I needed when I had discussions with my utility in my home
Hometown in Colon uh they think we go also have hydrogen to heat our houses and then I read studies especially going for hydrogen in the heating sectors uh like the ones that was not a good idea yeah okay um like uh the ones we see here in the front and uh then I
Wondered because one of the arguments why we should also take hydrogen for heating our houses was we can store hydrogen that’s the advantage and then but why not storing heat when it’s about heating sector and using uh heat pumps and then I looked for the word heat
Storage in those studies of hundreds of pages and it even did not appear and then you need to look who is paying for the study and then you might get a better idea what the idea is behind that so there are a lot of studies with different interests and that makes me
Spicious maybe a bit a look back as you said and it did not say but you almost mentioned I’m old guy uh why I am such a suspicious person and what you see here that is when I was a young student in the very early 1990s um we students had been full of
Ideas how we can make our electricity renewable we went for solar energy we went for wind energy and our old professor said you are so stupid that never can work with renewable energy and what you see here is a one page in newspapers our utilities have advertised
And that was to argue why we still need to go for nuclear why coal is so important and among others it is just saying here Sun water or wind cannot cover more than 4% of our electricity needs even in the long term and that uh made us young guys uh
Suspicious angry and we had been fighting against our old professors and nowadays we know 4% of renewable Electric is almost nothing even in our uh dark and dull country like Germany we have now more than 50% of renewable electricity and that was whenever I see
Such a new hype such a new topic coming up that makes me a bit suspicious when people say that is the only future and let’s have a look on different ways how we could heat our buildings for example we have here on the right side five build buildings they
Are identical and on the left side we have the renewable future with wind and solar and we want to heat those houses and then for sure we can do that with a heat pump um using electricity and have a very efficient way uh we always use um solar and wind
Having some grd losses and we also could say ah it’s cheaper when we have uh just electrical resistive heating um also can heat the houses with electricity or we can produce in electrolyzer hydrogen store the hydrogen and burn it in our boil uh in our gas uh boilers also to heat the
House or we could produce the hydrogen and store the hydrogen put it in a combined cycle power plant and use the electricity again to use a he heat pump you think that is a a strange way but it is investigated in um some of those studies or we could again go for the
Hydrogen path way again burn the hydrogen in the combined cycle power plant use the electricity to heat the houses with heat pumps and also use the waste heat uh in District heating grids but when that here in the first row the most efficient one that will be
Um that amount of solar and wind systems we need to power the house then um we have another need when we go for a pure electric resistive Heating and then we need almost 3.5 the amount of solar systems and wind systems and we need the space for those solar and wind systems
When we go for this hydrogen path we almost need six times the amount of solar systems and wind systems and going for the others is 2. 8 or 2.5 the times and that’s the question apart from all the costs we might have in the system do we really want to have uh do
Large amount of solar and wind systems do we go for this efficiency losses the same we could discuss when it’s for private transport in our cars we could again have for example four types of electricity paths and we could go for direct battery electric driven electric
Cars or maybe we could go for the hydrogen pathway store the hydrogen in a gases way use fuel cells and then again we use electric motor to drive the car we also can go for a liquid hydrogen pathway and using fuel cells and driving electric motor by the way those uh fuel
Cell cars also have a small battery involved so that is not that it’s without a battery or we can go the dream of some of the old German car manufacturers we want to go still for our diesel engine but still become climate neutral and then we go for
Hydrogen producing power to liquids and then we can drive our old diesel cars they are so beautiful again when that the first one is the most efficient one and again we need this amount of wind and solar systems then we need more of them in the other uh Pathways it’s maybe three times
Uh for the uh fuel cell car or even four times when we go for the liquid and when we go for the power to liquid um that we can use our internal combustion engine is even more than five times and when we say that with the hydrogen py oh but efficiency is not
Everything there is other things that is much more important efficiency always mattered but now when we talk about hydrogen is not anymore of that big importance and then they say yes but you only look on the German country and yes when you have the direct electric car
Then you need to have the wind system and the solar system in our country but now now uh take this wind system and solar system and put it to Chile for example then with the same investment you have maybe double the electricity you make out of the system
And then the efficiency is not anymore the big topic we come back to that later but from that we see when we look to those studies what is the demand in 2050 it is just a question which sectors we are really looking at do we really go for the private transport using hydrogen
Or not and then we have a big difference do we go for heating in buildings with hydrogen again it makes a big difference and we will see in future what uh will win the race so maybe for the future more realistic at least I believe that is
That we don’t use hydrogen in all the sectors but maybe there where we do not have really a lot of Alternatives and uh that was just the efficiency talk then uh what about all the equipment the electrol lies the fuel cells the storages and so on I think you
Know this expression and again I asked the artificial intelligence please draw me a picture it’s raining dogs and cats and that was the result and uh when we imagine in the future maybe it is then raining electrolyzers and fuel cells uh and they will be as cheap as in some prognosis we find
That um maybe it’s a good idea by the way the artificial intelligence could not uh draw a picture its raining electrolyzers and fuel cells that was absolutely nonsense that came out by that artificial intelligence does not know what the electrolyzer is so far um when then when we look to this cost
Protections um I think people who are much more in detail in that than I am but nevertheless I am getting suspicious when I see those studies and for example here we have the production cost of hydrogen given here in US dollar per kilogram of hydrogen as
I’m not a chemist guy I always need to transferred it in Euro Cent for a kilowatt hour not a kilogram and today that study says we are around $5 for a kilogram and then they project for the future we have a 80% cost reduction the electrolyzer what
Is the cost per day uh even the electricity cost for the input in the electrolyzer will drop significantly uh the efficiency is going up of electrolyzers and so on and so on and then we end up in the future with $1 for a kilogram of hydrogen using another graph from Irena
For example and again that is the prognosis what is the cost in dollar for a kilogram of hydrogen and then when we look here to the small numbers here what they taken as a assumption and there we see that the electrolyzer cost is in the
High lines $300 us for a kilowatt and in the low lines it is only $150 for a kilowatt and the rest is uh the difference in electricity prices and then I think at least the graph starts here in 2020 and which electrolyzer do they use when they calculate with 150 to
A300 uh dollar for a kilowatt um even when we only talk about the cells I think we hardly find that but when we look how hydrogen is really produced it is much more than just here the electrolyzer cell um and it’s much more components and so when we look there is a
Need that we have the power supply for the hydrogen production needs with Transformers with frequency converters uh with safety uh protections and so on we cannot just use the water that is coming out of a river we need to also have a processing of the water that
We have a long lifetime of our electrolytes then we have compressors in those system that are costly and consuming energy and the hydrogen that is coming out is also not always pure and we also need the processing of the hydrogen that is coming out later and only that small thing here is the
Electrolyzer cells or the electrolyzer stack when I look here that is a company nman and ether and they at the moment they sell the container system for the production of hydrogen and again we see that here is the electrolyzer but the complete system comprises of so much
More and when I they do not publish their prices for the hydrogen production facilities but they are multiples of what we can read in studies nowadays and then we have a photo here of another one this is from elen also a container system and again you hardly
Find here in the picture where the electrolyzer cell is there’s so much else that is needed to produce hydrogen that I’m not sure whether all those prognoses with beautiful learning curves will be the reality in the next decades that one uh is a pilot project in Kaiser Ash nobody knows where that is
Even the German ones not it’s a small village in the state of Ryland fs and they have a lot of wind power even more than they need and they said before we stop our wind turbines because the grid cannot uh deliver the electricity to where it is needed then we start to
Build up a hydrogen business and again here you see the photo you don’t see the cell itself it’s a lot of engineering equipment here and the pure cell is a quite small component in the complete system and again I’m not an expert but when I look to learning curves and yes
We see this yellow curve here from photovoltaics and that has a fantastic history a fantastic story how cheap photov voltes had been getting and when we look to the PV cells yes those semiconductor devices it’s a small unit and we learn to produce them very automated we have a Ste we have
Steep learning curves the cost degression had been fantastic and we always thought wind termines would go the same but the reality is we cannot observe the same learning in in wind turbines and due to many reasons for example steel prices even went up sometimes even the prices for wind turbines
Increased and when I look to the fuel cell systems I asked myself whether yes maybe for the components of the electrolyzer cells I also can imagine in future they are produced in high quantities very automated but all the rest of the system I it seem that it will be a bit of
Handmade and it is hardly being automed everything and maybe for the fuel set we have the same uh fuel cells for the electrolyze cells we have the same uh learning curves like PV but for the rest of the system it’s maybe more like a wind turbine a lot of handmade things so
That is what I’m always asking myself is the cost degression potential really that high for hydrogen production that we always see in those Productions and will we see High Learning Systems only with electrolyzer cells but not really with electrolyzer systems maybe you can answer that question I am not able to solve or
Answer myself it’s only the doubts I have and by the way please tell me when I only have five minutes left um I would like to make a small excurses on the battery Market development again in my country and it’s a bit the same in scientific conferences I always see a
Prote projection and also valuse of battery prices that are used then in Energy System simulation that is far away what I see in reality and I’m using here some figures of a colleague Yan figer from aen showing here the battery development in households mainly attached to PV systems and then also in
Ecars and they it was until the last year half of it more or less was a plugin hybrid only the other half was pure electric cars but when we not look to the number of cars or number of systems but in the capacity installed in gwatt hours then we see that one and
There we see uh the systems that are installed in houses with peee systems became absolutely small and the battery Market is now really driven by the electric cars and that’s booming and I think that is the good chance we all not only solve the problem in decarbonization of the transport system
At least the the private public transport uh but also maybe the electricity sector with that when we do more and that is now what is the analysis of the battery system prices uh in my country and then um okay let’s forget about the very small systems but
Even when we go for those systems up to 250 kilowatt hours of storage what the end consumer really pays for is not1 EUR for a kilowatt hour it’s not a 300 EUR for a kilowatt hour it is still close to ,000 EUR for a kilowatt hours and that
Is the reality it is not those beautiful projections of the um cost degression what we see in so many Publications but when we look now what is going for the vehicle to grit or vehicle to home application and again looking to what the battery really costs when we want to
Buy it and let’s say that is a very a cheap one it’s €750 for a kilowatt hour and then I was interested buying a eard during the pandemics and looking for this Nissan Leaf car and then I had offer of € 30,000 and that included a 40 KW hour
Battery and when I divide 30,000 by 40 I end up oh accidentially it’s also €750 for a kilowatt hour but in the car I even get four tires uh and some seats and uh air conditioning and whatever you need in such a car so in cars there
Seems to be the prices are getting really cheaper but of course it not really works so far with the vehicle to grid the vehicle to home uh technically yes but not from a regulation point of view and but then we have a completely different development maybe of those
Prices and when we look how the battery size develops in cars and there we have um an analysis of how the German people are driving and when we look only for the single trips so I go from this point to another point and then we see that
For 95% of the single trips um capacity for 42 kilom would be sufficient when there are not assume the charging possibility and we say oh we need for all the trips we make in a day then we see that for 95% of all the day trips we could do with 150 kilm
Battery so but what we see in the EA Market is that we have driving capacities exceeding much much 300 kilomet and we have capacities of batteries between 50 and now some cars even more than 100 kilowatt hours and that means when we look to that we can
Do so much more with those batteries in the cars than just driving and again looking just some stupid examples here we have almost uh 48 million cars in Germany and we assume for the future they all will be electric cars battery-driven cars uh for sure we hope we will have
Less cars in the future have other ways of transportation but when we assume that would become true we have here on the horizontal the battery capacity of a single car and then we have the total installed capacity on the vertical and when we see that the maximum load
Electrical load of the German system always in a uh dull and cold November days is around 70 gwatt we could power uh with a average car battery in of 50 kilowatt hours more than a day of the peak load or when we have when we in
Future all Drive Audi Rons we even could power the maximum load for 3 Days assuming starting uh all the batteries had been charged completely or when we look to the average car that only drives 38 kilomet per day and we assume even a high consumption of 20 kwatt hours per 100
Kilometers that is then a 7.67 kilowatt hours per day and then we see we only need something between uh maybe seven and 15% of the capacity per day in average that means for most people it’s sufficient they only charge the batteries at a weekend for example so
There’s a lot of space to manage when you really charge the cars so that I think uh will be a good thing and competitor for hydrogen in the future but coming back to the energy system and now we always only look to Energy System but when we go beyond energy so we always
Discuss yes we have electric grid uh we have maybe battery storage there and then we have a gas grid with gas storages and then we have sometimes also District heating grid with heating storages we can uh interconnect the different sectors and uh for sure we have Mobility uh maybe G driven electrically driven
That is this sector coupling issue and then now maybe in future we also have here the hydrogen or maybe even the ammonia and then we have another linkage because the hydrogen ammonia needs to be produced by for example electricity and then people started to say but we have hydrogen demand not only
In energy but we also have that uh feed stock demand uh in the chemistry industry in steel in fertilizer and some others and uh what to do with that we never take care about that that was we always said yes the industries they need the electricity or energy demand but that
They need others we even had not on our mind but when we see then that is maybe the energy and hyrogen demand and in future we also have this uh consumptions of hydrogen or the need of hydrogen to replace in those Industries like the chemical industry
The natural gas and the crude oil and that also comes from hydrogen or like the fertilizer production or like the steel that must become a green steel then uh yes we have higher demand in hydrogen than only for the energy system and when we need to produce the hydrogen
That also increases then our electricity or energy demand so there is a new pack coupling in this system and let’s have a look a bit on the fertilizers for example it’s a giant World Market so it’s more than 202 megatons of fertiliz produced every year and it’s good that
We are fertilizing uh our agricultural Fields because here we see this 71 here GLE per Hector is when we are not fertilizing and when we are fertilizing we see with the fertilizer the plants can do that much more on production out of the solar power and only the effort
We put in in energy in ammonia in Ur production is quite small so it makes sense to do that and when we look down to the diagram on the fertilizers production again we see um yes it’s mainly done today with coal natural gas to produce D the ammonia and
Then quite often I listen that ammonia is used for the fertilization but the vast majority is Ura and in Ria for example again we have the carbon need to produce that so it’s not only hydrogen it’s also question where we get the carbon from and it’s a big uh greenhouse gas this fertilizer
Production and it’s just accidentially the amount of megatons of CO2 equivalent is more exactly the same number that Germany has as greenhouse gas emissions so the worldwide fertilizer industry is exactly what we Germans are polluting the world with and that mainly could be solved with green hydrogen uh
And what we need that for is go back sorry um the green ones here is the nitrogen fertilizers then we have also the phosphorus and the potassium fertilizers but from an energy point of view the phosphor and the potassium fertilizers can be more or less neglected it’s mainly the
Um the the the where is it the nitrogen fertilizer and yes some ammonia is used directly to fertilize but when it’s in ambient Condition it’s a gas and then they put needles into the Earth and when then the the soil is wet the ammonia connects with the water and
Then the nitrogen can be absorbed by the plants but that is a quite difficult job and therefore we see that the ammonia that is produced for fertilizers absolutely the most goes in for the Ura production ction here and then we have some other fertilizers but the direct
Application of ammonia is a very small part used in fertilizers and again Ura that is too complicated for me as electrical engineer but we see there is this C in it so we have a need also for carbon or carbon dioxide when we go for that and when we look then how
Fertilizers are dealt with uh we have exporting countries and when we come down to South America we see uh there is one of the Chile neighbors It’s Brazil it’s the by far away the largest importer of fertilizer products in the world but with the green hydrogen maybe
Produced here in South America there is a very local market first of all to get rid here of the fossil fertilizers imported mainly from Russia Ukraine and Belarus uh to produce that here in a local market and there’s almost no competition I think uh with our things but when
Fertilizers become more expensive maybe it’s also a chance then that we have more organic fertilizers than in future and when it’s getting more costly maybe also Technologies like Precision fertilizing gets a better chance that is too costly today so not just spraying the fertilizer all over the field but
Just by Hightech only putting the fertilizers exactly where the plants are and that we see in some experiments here we can save up to 25% of the fertilizer and in the right picture we see the plants at Le at least they look very green so more technology maybe when the
Fertilizers are getting uh more expensive when we go to the cement industry it’s not really a good solution I think there is not a good solution because a part of it is the heat we need to produce the cement and that we might uh substitute in future also by hydrogen
But it’s only among one third of the energy needed uh goes into this heat and the other problem is that we have from the process related emissions whenever we have this calcium carbonate and heat we have have the cement and then we have the CO2 emissions so then we might have then
This CO2 to use it then in the hydrogen industry but then it’s not a green because it’s really additional emissions we have or we need need maybe to go into the sequestration also would like to have a few slides on the chemical industry and that for my country is a big industry
It’s almost 10% of the German industrial turnover coming from the chemical industry and we have almost half a million workers that are employed in that industry and again we see then uh when we go in future to make that climate neutral uh that is a study from the
German chemical industry to produce all those different products we have we need hydrogen we need carbon dioxide and we use then a lot of electricity to produce the hydrogen or maybe we import the hydrogen but how dramatic it is shows that graph from the study and here they see in the black
Line how emissions could go down in the year 2050 to zero but even now days they need a lot amount high amount of energy but mainly to get rid of the CO2 emissions replace it by Green hydrogen the additional electricity demand will will be 600 terawatt hours and that
Again accidentially is more or less exactly our today’s electricity demand so the chemical industry would almost double the demand of the complete country when we stay with this chemical industry also in future now there is a new study and uh they learned already a bit to reduce then this high demand on electricity
When it’s not always going everything produced by electricity but also using biomass resource recycling of plastics for example and then that could be reduced to numbers here um that is then significantly lower like that 600 tatt hours a year but it is still really an enormous amount on additional
Electricity resources and then the final thing is the green steel there are much bigger steel producers in the world than my country but nevertheless it’s important industry hisory also in our country and with the conventional uh production it was always the problem we have this iron oxide we add then Coke
And then for sure we have on the right side the iron the pure iron but also the CO2 that is emitted so it’s not an energy emission it’s just a process emission and we can get rid of that with the direct reduction plans when we use instead of the co
Hydrogen then we uh get rid of those emissions but again then we have a hydrogen demand that is apart from our demand for energy and then when we look back to our system the energy system now has also this feed stock demand and uh we can decide to do that all in one
Country or we know it’s hard to export and import Heat and hold electricity maybe with our neighboring countries but hydrogen that might be produced somewhere completely else in the world and depending on what policy policy makers decide what the society allows and What markets how markets will develop maybe the hydrogen or its
Derates are produced somewhere completely else and then we have even maybe a lower energy and hydrogen demand in a certain country but as beautiful that looks uh then you need to transport the hydrogen and then it’s the question of the energy density and hydrogen has a fantastic energy
Density in terms of weight but poor in terms of volume and volumes we need to transport when we looked at when we transport oil products then the value or the energy density in terms of volume is much much better you might can much much better transport o products than hydrogen in a gas’s
Form even natural gas we see has a low energy density in terms of volume and that is the reason why we always have been that lucky to get the gas in pipelines by Russia when we have the liquid natural gas we have a better energy density in terms of volume but
Still a bit less than the oil products and then we then say okay we need to go away from hydrogen to transport that in future we might have the liquid hydrogen but it’s still lower than the liquid natural gas or we could go to liquid ammonia is still better but it’s still
Not that perfect to be transported and even methanol has not the same densities than we have with liquid natural gas or even with oil products and that is maybe a burden for the trade of the hydrogen products that is a picture that illustrates that quite well we see on the right side um
The high compressed hydrogen with 400 Bars and it’s almost the same amount of hydrogen like we have on the left side uh when it it’s stored in a liquefied process or here we have a picture of uh the liquefication plant in Loa or here a pilot project hyra between in Australia
And Japan to test out um liquid hydrogen transport and applications or we might have then the ammonia that can be transported and then it’s the question what are we doing in the Des the Final Destination do we need the ammonia can we use the ammonia or do we need to
Spread again to get to crack it to get the hydrogen to use the hydrogen and that might also play a role but as ammonia is already today important player for the fertilizer production for example we have already a quite good infrastructure worldwide for ammonia uh production and
Shipping but when we then look to all the beautiful picture of the future we need to see yes for the gases hydrogen the technology Readiness levels they have the nine so that is ready for implementation but for many other Technologies we see here yellow and red parts and that means not necessarily
That there is not technology available but quite often only in small sizes and that needs a scaling up to really meet the demands where all the world is talking about nowadays so it’s not just investing and doing there is still a quite High development demand demand and
Then again I think I have shown this slide already on the panel thank you and then we see hydrogen transport and I skip now the local transport looking again for the very large distance transport between countries it is maybe more than $2 for a kilogram of hydrogen that um needs to be
Paid and then I skip bit because I have shown those example of transporting hydrogen or daats to different parts of the world um and then we always see it’s quite high priced but for example looking here from Saudi Arabia to the port of Ram uh yes it’s then maybe $3 for a
Kilogram but when I want to have that then in my town and maybe there is also maybe then a transportation by train or by la we might add another two or1 and a half dollar for a kilogram when we have also the last 100 miles transport considered and uh that is then about
Also the leakages when we have liquid hydrogen we have the high losses by liquification we have the boil off but that might be used for transport fuel in ships when we go for the liquid organic hydrogen carriers again we have high energy demand for the dehydrogenation in the import region
With high temperatures required and when we go for the ammonia we have a high energy demand for the production in the ammonia synthesis and maybe then also a high consumption when we are cracking the ammonia when we are saying we are not dealing with the ammonia but we want
To have the hydrogen back apart from the ammonia and uh due to the time uh I skipped that that should be the world of power tox showing that there is among others also that need for the carbon and as carbon is already needed today but it’s mainly out of a fossile supply we
Need it in future maybe from um agriculture from biomass or residual or maybe we can capture it by air but we need it for so many products we talked about here the Ura and maybe also the methanol but in so many products we find
Not only the H we also find the C for example when you had too long party yesterday evening at steis party and you need the aspirine also that is not a green product but might be uh produced in future also by hydrogen and by a green carbon source and so when we
Looking for carbon we have this direct air capturing and that’s the positive you can do that wherever you are because there is always air but the content of CO2 in the air is quite small and the cost is very high at least today and even the protections for future is not
That good industrial emissions we should not take into account because it’s not green and using biomass is then maybe significantly cheaper but but then it’s also a decision where do I produce my hydrogen and maybe um the ammonia methanol Ura and so on I need to come to the end I think um
But there’s another option we not only can produce hydrogen somewhere else in the world but we also could say why not producing chemical products uh the green Steel or the fertilizers in other part of the world that must not be my country Germany we will do everything to avoid
That our industry will gone away but maybe that is a completely new chance for countries they have which have a good opportunity for hydrogen production that they don’t stop with the hydrogen but they go for the chemical products for the steel production and so on and
Then we even might have in the high industrial countries a lower energy demand a lower hydrogen demand than we have nowadays but whether that comes really true um maybe it’s a question do we really need the most the best conditions of solar and winds and
You see here the map the best one is here in atakama uh from a solar point of view but when we have a closer look the best place in the world compare that with the worst first place in my country it’s almost only a factor of two what py
Can do there it’s just a factor of two and when I go for example then look into the oil reserves and look which countries have half the resource of the best location in the world and the best location is Venezuela and there only a few countries
Who have half uh at least half of the reserves it’s Canada it’s Saudi Arabia Iran and Iraq and all the other countries have less than half the reserves of Venezuela and same with natural gas reserves it’s Russia with the biggest ones and it’s only Iran and Qatar who
Have half the reserve so the situation is less critical uh for solar and wind when we look all over the world and then other things uh what about the Central Bank interest rates where do I want to in was my money do I really want to go
At the moment to take a lawn in Argentina where I have interest rates of 100% And there Europe for example is always a very cheap country for money also that might play a role and then I come to the stakeholders sorry for the picture but every always when somebody
Talks about stakeholders I have someone in mind holding a steak in his hand or her hands um and then just a question is the countries for example like Chile willing to invest in those hydrogen economies is they are willing to replace the industries we have in Europe and
Bring them here to the South America and looking to again that was artificial intelligence I asked artificial intelligence to draw a rich immobile Society Guy full and tired unwilling to accept change and preservation of the status quo and that was the result uh the artificial intelligence was producing we have uh in Central
Europe High willing to keep what we have and not to invest in change and that also might reason how maybe something will develop in a different way than our Pure technical analysis will go for and we have a lot of actors uh who are un willing to change things uh in our
Society and then I end up with another interpretation from playground artificial intelligence also interpreting the title of my talk I really don’t understand uh what that is here but I think that is the power to ex production facility but I like a bit uh the interpretation because there are so many
Roads and maybe these are the options we have to have have the power to ex economy in the future so thank you very much for your attention thank you for this very comprehensive and somehow critical um talk so do we have questions comments we have a question uh from online audience
If you will allow at this point so from Luana Galvan uh what do you think about the environmental and social concern about the exploitation of lithium in Latin American communities for the manufacturer of batteries oh a difficult question uh I think uh it’s a big chance for those countries
Uh to be part of the big battery uh demand that we have a big chance for the societies to have the profit out of it even a much bigger profit when they not only supplied as lithium but would also go into battery production because then there is really
The added value and then there is always the topic about the high water consumption one needs with the lithium and then there is where my knowledge stops how does the water demand really affects what they need for the lithium production or is it the salty water in
The salt laks that is not used for the drinking water I think that maybe the local people here better can um evaluate than I can do uh Yanik hio thanks for your great talk Yanik from New Zealand um you touched about many topics but I wanted to Circle back on co2 and
Fuels um not for my Porsche that I don’t have but for example for airplanes or sea shipping um so we need carbon I need to capture that carbon somewhere to make it carbon neutral um what’s the view of putting that carbon underground and just stor it away forever or using that
Carbon to actually make this fiels versus the Alternatives of biofuels or carbon credits what’s what’s your take on those three options maybe we need all of them could be an answer maybe we need also this fuels for the aircraft Transportation why not and maybe we also
Need to get rid I not that optimistic anymore that we can keep the 1.5 degree Target we soon maybe will get over that and we get a long way until we have a carbon neutral society and in that way we even need to get for negative
Emissions and then I think there are a lot of things growing Forest s maybe reducing a lot of concrete and building buildings by wood uh maybe even having a lot of other replacement of concrete uh even in wind turbine applications so a lot of things that we made a wide for
Negative CO2 emissions I think we cannot uh only build on one option yeah just to punctuate my question um if I already captured that CO2 I inclined to just put it away under the ground forever why doing The Detour through Fields why why not doing why why
Doing the detour to S fuels if I already have the captured carbon and I want to put it away I really not maybe that is again then a business case question whether it’s it could be cheaper investing in carbon capture and then bury it away or
Really using it then because we need to have a alternative also for Aviation fuels and so on okay I think we need Thanks other questions comments I I wanted to ask um before before the other questions um we understood that you’re kind of critical with the hydrogen Pathways but which imagine that we still have hyrogen which would be your um best priority for hydrogen application and and and the
Worst one yeah I think uh it’s when we agree that we need to become carbon neutral I think there are even some people who say oh we don’t need but when we agree on that there are some um Pathways that do not have alternative then really we have alternative less
Option that is hydrogen like in the chemical industry like in the fertilizer production uh like in the green steel when we need the green steel and so on and there we really need it from a process point of view and that I think is where we immediately can start with
Because we do not have an alternative when we say oh in future we will drive with fuel cell cars then maybe it’s a risky investment when a country decides oh we built up a hydrogen Filling Station Network and then it turns out H but the battery
Electric cars make the race and then you have a lot of stranded Investments and of those wherever we have Alternatives I see always a high risk going in this hydrogen uh Direction but I would really start with chemical industry steel industry fertilizer industry thanks uh there was a question
There I think yes thank you thank you very much I really also appreciate the uh how critical uh your presentation was and I was wondering when when you show those curves now taking a systemic Viewpoint right so decarbonization of the electricity sector and then whatever scenario comes comes forward to what
Extent does the future in expected increase in um you know a raw material extraction and use to power this whole thing affect the uh you know the the expected decrease uh of costs due to learning curves and so on is it taken taken into account in those scenarios and uh no
Okay it’s not taken into account and sure we know whenever we go away from burning uh fossile fuels uh and using resources like sun and wind that we have we go uh in another cycle and we use a lot of raw materials to build up the wind turbines the solar cells the fuel
Cells and so on and therefore it’s really necessary that we get into a circular economy because when we just build and throw away that is the next problem we are running in the good thing is when we burn coal the coal is gone but when we produce a wind turbine we
Got got in a circular economy and then we have that forever or almost forever but uh for sure May that might be there also might be some materials getting scars and that might also destroy price development degression yeah maybe um thanks so we are running a bit
Over time so I won’t take any more questions but feel free to ask Ingo uh at at the break so I want to say a big thank you again for the presentation