Sigi Koko is the principal designer of Down to Earth Design, which she founded in 1998 to help her clients manifest their dreams of living in a natural, healthy home. She works exclusively on projects that are natural, energy-efficient buildings, on the forefront of sustainable design. Every project functions in synchronicity with its environment, relating to seasonal cycles of sun, wind, and rain to provide natural heating and cooling primarily from passive (free!) sources. Her clients enjoy an average 50% reduction in total energy usage compared to conventional buildings. She uses a palette of building materials that ensure healthy indoor space and minimal environmental impact.This episode is the first episode from a two hour conversation with Sigi Koko. This episode is mostly focussed around the design of a natural home. We talk about how she is able to design a home that meets her clients dreams… even when they don’t yet know them! Episode 71 is the second half of this conversation and focusses more on materials, myths and women in construction. Links for Episode 70:Sigi Koko’s website – https://buildnaturally.com/A Pattern Language – Christopher Alexanderhttp://www.patternlanguage.com/ Rob Hopkins – What is to what ifReview Building Sustainability Podcast – https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/building-sustainability-podcast/id1459369615Kiko Denzer – Build Your own earth oven – https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/kiko-denzer/build-your-own-earth-ovenBecky Bee – https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19046.You_Can_Make_the_Best_Hot_Tub_EverSpoon carving course with Jeffrey May 7th 2022 – Bristol, UK- https://treetotreen.com/spoon-carving/Podcast Patreon – https://www.patreon.com/buildingsustainabilityThe Southside Hereford: University Design Challenge 2022: Information TDChallenge22 Flyer here Register your interest in participating here Recordings The Mick & Pat ShowJoin us for informal conversations surrounding beer, film, politics and philosophy.Listen on: Apple Podcasts SpotifySupport the showConnect with me:IG – @jeffreythenaturalbuilderTwitter – @JNaturalBuilderFacebook – JeffreythenaturalbuilderLinkedIn – JeffreythenaturalbuilderSupport this podcast – https://www.patreon.com/buildingsustainability
Welcome to building sustainability podcast with me your host Jeffrey Hart AKA Jeffrey the natural Builder every fortnite join me as I talk to designers Builders makers dreamers and doers exploring the wide world of sustainability in the built environment by talking to wonderful people who are doing excellent things hello and welcome
To episode 770 of building sustainability podcast this week I am delighted to bring you two conversations with sigy Coco H sigy Coco is a name synonymous with natural buildings and anyone who has been in the talking natural homes Facebook group will have no doubt seen her work and also seen her tirelessly answering
Questions Siggy is an architectural designer and natural Builder who loves to get her hands in the mud and teach oh so many people the joys of natural building we actually talked for a solid two hours and honestly I still had a page of questions left so I had so much to talk
About with uh with Siggy and it was an absolute Delight so I’ve divided these podcasts into two uh nice hourong chunks uh this episode is kind of a background and really focused on the design process uh how she goes about getting from the initial client meeting
To a design on paper the next episode 71 focuses a bit more on materials we talk about the myths in natural building and also women in construction before we get into the podcast there’s a little bit of podcast updates firstly if this is your first time listening make sure you hit the
Subscribe button and head back and have a listen to some of the other episodes there full of natural building goodness and great design tips I’ve been sent a fantastic Opportunity by Timber development UK uh they are running a design challenge you’ll be designing a real life building uh with a budget of
1.6 to 1.9 million so let me read you the blur we are looking for students and 2021 graduates from UK universities any built environment subject to register by the end of February to join a team and design a passive house Community Center predominantly from Timber that sits lightly on the site producing more
Energy than it consumes uh you need to register by the 21st of February that’s 2022 on the TR website there’s a link in the show notes you can self- select your team or we can help you and then you submit your entry by mid June and there
Is a live judging and awards on the 22nd of July at the new model institute for technology G and Engineering in Herford there are cash prizes and certificates for all valid team entries and it sounds like a great thing to get involved with and if that wasn’t enough all the
Students get free software included so you get use of trimble’s SketchUp Studio portfolio design phpp and the aeb’s CO2 calculator so access to a whole load of highend stuff seems like a great competition I know they get lots of entries every year could be a good thing
To get involved with with also in news of upcoming events I am teaching a spoon carving Workshop if you are local to the Bristol area and available on the 7th of May 2022 then come along we will be carving a spoon from a log using just simple
Hand tools a saw an Axe and a couple of different knives uh so yeah if you want to learn all of the techniques and how to do it safely and really just enjoy a wonderful craft but opens up so much I get so much in my life from uh from
Being part of the spoon carving Community uh so yeah come along and join in I will put a link to that in the show notes and what else to say ah yes we’ve got a few lovely lovely patrons to say thanks to as always upfront apologies for poor pronunciations of names we have
Got Robert Greaves who also left a fantastic review on iTunes so thank you for that Robert we’ve got ano Hedges HED H sorry ano uh we have got Elizabeth Shawn and we have got Anthony gregoric so thank you all of you for contributing Anthony and Robert have gone for the building sustainability
Superhero level which means they are giving 55 a month and in return they are going to get a handar spoon kind of fitting for today’s intro so thank you all to those who have joined up this month and also just thanks to everyone else that supports the podcast it
Genuinely does mean this podcast can exist so thank you okay that is enough for me I will give a little tiny house update at the beginning of episode 71 and I will be back very briefly at the end enjoy Siggy Coco so I am sigy Koko I am an an architectural designer and I design exclusively natural buildings and I’ve been doing that for almost 25 years great and where are you based I am in the United States and I am in I live in Pennsylvania um which is sort of East
Coast us um but I work throughout the whole region of the East Coast do you know what and until quite recently I didn’t actually realize you were an architectural designer I thought you were just a builder um because I think most of the the things I’d seen were
Were things you’d built so it was a a nice surprise to find out ah so the way that I work is um so the first building the first it was a house it was an addition to a house outside of DC um and I realized so I had these
Drawings and then I knew about natural building but when I tried to hand them to someone they were like straw Bell wall what does that mean so I instantly realized that a I need to be handson and B I need to teach so that’s how I started teaching for one um which
I’m actually quite introverted so that was a real big that was very stressful um and uh so I was very Hands-On um with that one so it was basically the Builder and I built it together yeah um and I happen to really enjoy being Hands-On
But I also enjoy the design so I usually do something Hands-On on every project and I always offer to teach natural building workshops on every project before that first project had you had you done a Hands-On work before well I’ve I mean I’ve my mom would say I’ve
Been Hands-On since I came out so yes okay um but specific to Natural building that was um I would say in I have an art background so my undergraduate degree is in Fine Arts and sculpture specifically uh so that’s very you know tactile hands forward and then when I went to architecture
School I was kind of the weird one that you know grew grass on her roof and snipped it with scissors and you know built the walls out of clay instead of you know chipboard and foam board and um so I don’t yeah so in that sense yes and then from a natural building
Standpoint specifically I read everything I could get my hands on which at the time you could literally read everything there was out there um and um joined one of the I think it was the first East Coast natural building colloquium in 1996 and so I did that and I felt like I am
Home so lovely I why how did sort of natural materials get into your you know how did you sort of come across them yeah so when I was in I went to architecture school because I saw a photograph of a Anton Gaudi building when I was seven years old and it made me
Weep because it was so beautiful to me do you remember which building it was it was a photograph of the blue tiled Spire that’s at the bottom of the hill in the park the park rail yeah I think I know the one yeah yeah yeah and it was just the
Spire and I was like that’s what I want to do I want to build buildings that make people cry um and and so from Seven I was like architect and then when I went finally went to architecture school I had one of in the first year I had a professor who
Was teaching sort of world history of architecture and the way she approached it was teaching she would show indigenous buildings from around the world and say why they were built the way they were so you know you could see from the building oh this area floods oh
All they have they don’t have wood here they only have stone and Clay oh this is an arid climate and they collect their water and everything is about cooling you know and and that’s I was like H yes okay we that’s what we’re doing yeah um
So to me that instantly if a building makes sense for where it is I’m hooked right so from the materials to The Climate um you know the the reaction to the climate yeah so to me that that was the most logical thing I had come across and so yeah to me that’s natural
Building yeah I fully agree was was that quite a sort of revolutionary concept when you were at school was that a you it sounds like you s of said you were the the one trimming the grass on your roof uh so other people weren’t weren’t as as inspired by the the vernacular
Design no no no I I think I that it touched me I mean she teaches that every year and it’s not so I went to the University of Texas in Austin it’s not like they’re spitting out natural Builders or natural Architects you know
So I it just for me the way that I grew up and with my sensibilities and um my mom’s German and you know very practical right and efficiency and you know so that’s my mindset and to me that natural building is all of that and also tactile and also userfriendly and all of
A sudden people can meaningfully participate in building so it’s got this whole like like human like well humanitarian for one but also like this human interaction that cannot happen with conventional construction unless you have a particular skill set which is not most people MH and so if all of a
Sudden the person like kids their kids can participate in construction meaningfully build walls right that’s a paradigm shift right and and I don’t think everyone looks for that so I think when I was in school and I was touched by that that’s about you know who I am
And how I grew up not necessarily about the schooling right it just happens to be that that was the one piece that sent me off in this direction right so yeah yeah I don’t know I I it feels to me like sort of society is is moving away
From you know kids playing in the dirt and getting hands on and do you agree with that I’m not sure I’m not sure I feel like there’s um so I have taught for example example I have gone to schools and like the whole sixth grade class builds a
Bench you know and they all Cy each class Cycles through over two days you know yeah um and they all participate and you know they they usually at least one kid is like wait your job is to play in the mud and their head explodes that that’s
Possible you know so I you know it’s not like any of them go I I can’t touch you know um I think in all the years I’ve taught kids I’ve had one person who didn’t like to touch mud and that was because they had a a per a touch sensibility right
So I don’t know I don’t know I think that’s come from I think uh some friends of mine uh teach uh sort of Art and they go around and you know teach art and they they said they that sometimes they go into schools and you know people are
They don’t want to get Mucky they don’t want to kind of really get involved and they they’re quite standoffish um yeah maybe that’s a a particular group they were teaching and not a i’ I’ve just extrapolated that to be that’s how kids are now yeah and it
May be cycling back right so maybe there was a period of time you know I feel like there’s sort of cyclical cyclical parenting so it’s possible that we’re back to Hands-On again or something I don’t know but yeah yeah certainly so I’m interested to know about your design
Process and how do you I guess sort of extract an idea from the the clients and then how you know what’s what are the important things that you then take forward so I first I have a fairly rigorous um intake with clients um it’s important to me that I connect with someone um
So you’re you’re kind of interviewing them yeah I had a I had a client one once who near near the end of our design process together uh she said you know I just have to tell you I thought we were interviewing you at that first meeting but now I realize you were interviewing
Us too and I was like uhuh um and and it’s never personal it’s just to me it’s important that we can communicate well and that we’re on the same page so it’s important to me for example um that communication is always respectful like that me it’s maybe obvious but that natural building and
Sustainable issues are their top priorities right obviously they want you know it’s usually homes right they want a home that’s livable and beautiful and works for them and all of that but any architect can do that MH um but if if they’re going to compromise on and some
Of the natural building bits like I If we take straw Bell out I I don’t want to do it right so I I wouldn’t want to quit on them because they you know had a decision shift so it’s now at the point where I only people only approach me
Because that’s what they want but there was a period of time where I had to weed that out um and also size so um if something’s quite large and it’s just you know a couple in one kid I I don’t want to do that project either because I
Will keep trying to make it smaller and they will keep trying to make it bigger and yeah um you know we’re going to clash so they should work with someone who’s happy to make it as big as they want it to be right so yeah um there’s
Things like that um so but once I’ve sort of connected with someone I do what I call um collaborative design and to me what that means is I I am it’s a pretty hefty education for them of what the materials are the physics of why they perform why
The windows are placed where they are where the sun is how that works um how their heating system works in collabor so that by the end they understand why they made every single decision and I have empowered them to be able to make those decision ISS because
They have a knowledge base right and so and then by the end they when people come and see their house they can explain it which is also cool to me right yes um yeah so so it’s um it’s it’s I it’s probably more intense than most Architects do I usually do for
Small projects it’s about eight meetings and for larger project projects that’s 11 meetings um and and I you know we sort of the beginning is always concept right and um I always give them at least three to five different ideas so that we’re not just taking one
Idea and editing the heck out of it right if they have multiple ideas they can react oh I hadn’t thought of that or oh what if we do this and this over here you know and combine right so they feel free to um Express what works and what
Doesn’t more if they have more ideas because nothing is precious now so I I assume sort of quite early on those those are quite quick loose kind of ideas not not too detailed I think that’s that’s a really a big thing I me I I studied product design and that the
You it so difficult not to just follow your first idea because you know you played with it in your head and then you went yeah it’s brilliant and so force yourself out of that and well you know to to introduce clients to different ideas is is really really important and
What what I find actually is um two is easy and then often the third one’s harder but the third one is once it cracks it’s almost always better and it almost always opens up a fourth one right so once you get past that sort of preciousness it it cracks open of what
The possibilities are yeah I am so I this house is uh is mine and I um I designed it and it’s a it’s a tiny house you know it’s it’s small uh but I I was deliberate in my design process that I just sort of threw in random ideas you
What if this what if that what if the bedroom was downstairs what if you know deliberately trying to shake up my design process just so that I didn’t stick to that one one first thought perfect yeah that’s brilliant yeah exact but exactly that that is yeah because
You you don’t know until you draw it right if you’re always holding it just in your head it’s hard to move the parts around right but if you sketch it out different ways you see where the tight points are and you see why something does or doesn’t work and what the
Possibilities are so brilliant yeah very well done nice oh thank you I didn’t come here to you know to to be gratified I guess but but thanks is your tiny house mobile it is yes yeah ah so you had the whole like weight issue oh my goodness yes I do
Well that’s a a thing that I’ve never ever considered while building you generally is kind of more mass is better and you know thinking in that sort of terms and then to to have to have a spreadsheet of the weights of everything and you know well if I have this then I
Have to sacrifice that because wait uh yeah it’s a very interesting challenge is it when you’ve have you ever done uh tiny houses no but I have uh the daughter of one of my clients is is going down that road and she asked me to
Help her so yeah we I’m gonna try to support her in that right now so yeah she’s right now making the decision if she’s going to do something that’s Road worthy and consider all the weights of everything or you know straw liling clay and yeah and then it’ll at one place
Yeah yes deciding whether you’re uh you’re going to get itchy feet and uh and move on later cuz I mean for me I I feel like I’m settled here but I have that nagging but what if you know you don’t know the future right right right so but anyway we’re we side sidetracking
And talking about sorry sorry sorry um so so what are the sort of the questions that you’re asking your clients what is it you’re trying to get out of them in those sort of early meetings so I give them homework before we even begin right um and we review
That homework before before I’ve taken any money from them before we have a contract right anything um and there’s sort of three parts to the homework but I let them do whichever one two or three that they want um because different people are comfortable communicating in different ways so the one that most
People do is collecting images and um I tell them like don’t don’t think too hard about it if it moves you collect it and then we’ll figure out why it moved you later and what I do with the images is I it’s almost never one particular image it’s
Always the thread that carries through the images right so um like two quick examples I had one client who a healthy over 50% % of the photos were bathrooms right and they all had blue tile and I was like well I know what tire will dream in the bathroom um and
Obviously your bathroom is really important to you so right because if half her photos were the bathroom yeah we’re GNA spend some time designing the perfect bathroom right um and then uh I had another client who every single photo was visible wood structure left natural state so just oiled with white
Plaster like hand plastered every single photo and I was like okay I know you’re athetic right and so I mean those are easy ones but you know you’re kind of looking at the threads that people carry through and sometimes it’s sort of the quality of light or uh sometimes
Something quite specific you know like a big fireplace or something like that yeah um it’s usually it’s usually a feeling that is evoked that is a thread yeah um and then I tell them that back right so uh the whole point of reviewing it with them is I
Tell them what I see and if I’m off base I say don’t work with me because I don’t get you um like only think about working with me if what I’m saying back to you resonates right so um and then the second exercise is a writing exercise
And I ask them to project into the future pretend the house is done and write something it could be like a morning ritual or you know coming home at the end of a day or something you know your cup of tea I don’t know whatever it is um and many people don’t
Do that because they’re afraid of exposing writing to other people right there’s that fear but when people do that it’s often really um revealing right about sort of what life wants to feel like right yeah I bet yeah and then the last one is pattern language I give them pattern language as
Just read that homework yeah I mean I tell them to get it from a from a library and I say you know read the read the the list of patterns first and just write down the ones and then go read them and yeah um and about a third of
People do that one yeah and then I them an option to do there’s another book um called patterns of home that is sort of distills the pattern language into sort of 10 patterns and they’re visual so it’s a little so if somebody’s more visual then because pattern language is very intimidated book
Yeah yeah um yeah and so that one also sort of just it clarifies okay these are our really important things that are no-brainers and you know deal Breer yeah and then we once we start designing together so then I I distill that into just like a two-page document and send
It back to them it’s sort of this is now our vision bullet list of things that we’re going for and some of them are you know a bedroom that fits a king bed you know or whatever but um some of them are the quality of light is important and
Connecting inside and outside so that you feel like you’re outside and winter when you’re stuck inside you know um so it can be either experiential or functional right yeah um and then we’re both on the same page of what we’re shooting for um and then it always begins with relationships of spaces
Right so you know is it important that the bedroom is upstairs or downstairs is it important that uh when you first walk in the house what room are you in right interesting yeah you come in through a vestibule you hang your coat up you take your boots off or whatever and you step
Inside are you in the kitchen are you between the rooms is it all open right so things like that um yeah and then it starts to get more and more nitpicky as you go right yeah oh fantastic I like that I really like the uh that second exercise the um kind of
Imagining imagining yourself in the space Have you have you read hop Rob Hopkins book no it it’s called from what is to what if and it’s it’s based on uh how to sort of solving the climate crisis by using imagination and he does an exercise which is you know imagine
Yourself uh in 15 years time we’ve solved climate crisis you know now what look around what what does the world look like and it’s sort of removing those barriers of what we already know and and the sort of tram lines that we’re stuck in and uh yeah and letting you
Imagine all the wonderful things oh I don’t hear any traffic and you you’re sort of actually in that place feeling it well and it sounds like it it lets you imagine something positive so now that goal is desirable as opposed to the fear of change right yeah absolutely
Yeah oh that’s brilliant I like that so we touched on on patterns there um is that something you can you can talk a bit more about in terms of for people that maybe haven’t read pattern language um so pattern language was a thesis project from some students at UC
University of California and Davis that got kind of out of control and turned into a book and then then a book series and then a religion I think and then a religion yeah it’s definitely my religion um and what their goal was was to explain why when you step into a
Space it feels the way it does and literally break that down into specifics so um there’s this whole uh psychology of architecture uh so some architecture is meant to intimidate you right and some architecture is meant to embrace you right and as two just gross examples you know so when there’s a grand
Staircase and a huge door and pillars that are two stories tall like that house is meant to make you uncomfortable before you ever knock on the door right yeah you are less than right um versus you know an intimate porch that three people can stand on and a little bench
For you to sit down and a small window where you can see the person and they can see you before you have ever opened the door and then space when you walk in for you to know where to put your coat it’s a hook it’s not a closet that you
Have to now open their doors you know right so there’s this architecture of welcome welcome into my home and an architecture of and I’m just making them extreme but of course yeah right um and and they try to articulate what those pieces are quite specifically right um and then the way
The book is laid out is you don’t necessarily read it linearly um I did because I was obsessed but that’s not really the point of the book it’s it’s meant to be experienced as a web is how I think about it right so the very beginning
Just has a list of all the patterns right it’s just one one phrase right so it could be um you know light from above and you don’t know what that means necessarily but ah or couple’s realm oh well what’s that right and then you read through them and just if it’s intriguing
To you write it down now go read it and each one has has you know two to three sometimes a little bit more pages um that explains what is light from above mean how does it make you feel how does it um create what type of space does it create if there’s an
Energy um impact it might say that right so if it has to do with passive solar right I might talk about that a little bit yeah um and then at the beginning and the end of each pattern it lists related patterns and so then you read those and
Anything intriguing right so now that’s why you’re on a web yeah and then you distill it into the patterns that speak to you the most right so people with kids would have things that are kid related versus you know if it’s a couple and they don’t have kids and they’re
Older and they’re definitely not going to have kids and they wouldn’t do the ones that are kid related right so things like that but um yeah and to me it’s quite it’s it’s brilliant in the way that it it’s a way of communicating about
Space um how do I want to say this it takes you out of I need a spot for my kitchen pot to I want my home to feel like XYZ we’ll be back after a quick break hey there I’m Mick from the Mick and P show that’s right and I’m Pat
Looking for a podcast that’s like catching up with old friends well you’re in luck we’re here to bring you weekly doses of Lifestyle commentary discuss culture and politics and top it off with the occasional beer and film reviews but it’s not just about us we’re Community
Our listeners are our kin and we let you all have a say in what we discuss so saddle up and join the conversation at the Mick and Pat show you can check out our website or find us wherever you get your Podcast okay so away from practicalities and more into feelings yeah the experience you have right so um sitting in a corner in the winter with the sun streaming on your face right that sounds nice right and you don’t necessarily know what’s in the room right or where things are organized
Right though and you do that too um but those are the things people are comfortable telling you right yeah I have this many clothings right clothes right I have this is my kitchen this is what I need room for in the kitchen right that that’s easy and easy to solve
For but what do you want it to feel like every day and how do you elicit that from someone you know that’s that’s what pattern language opens up right is that whole conversation uhuh are any of the patterns it’s been a while since I’ve uh
I’ve read it but are any of the patterns uh kind of negative are they you know do they describe feelings of of discomfort because I always think of it as you know always creating cozy spaces H I think they talk about how I don’t know actually I haven’t like
Gone through each pattern in a really long time but um my memory of it is um that it will talk about why something if the if you do the opposite why that feels the way it does but it doesn’t I don’t think there’s necessarily oh if you want a grand if
You want to off-put people I don’t think it does that yeah okay I think the whole the whole goal and they ultimately there was a community in Davis California that was the whole Community was built based on pattern language and since it was built it has been fully occupied and when someone
Sells the house it sells within a day right so yeah yeah and so the whole goal was to create spaces that are universally warm and inviting and livable and comfortable right so yeah I was I was reading something uh the other day she was talking about uh how she
Grew up in England and there’s lots of you know very thick walled houses and so and she then moved to the states and um and she was saying you know in the states people don’t understand like the sitting in the window Nook and sort of looking out because you know they’re
Generally sort of sitting in in big sort of cubid boxes uh with birth in wars and so I that I mean the patent language always sort of brings to mind little little spaces that are quirky and might not be found in a very conventional you know 4X two uh 8×4 sheet
House yeah absolutely yeah yeah and then I think I think in the at Le I don’t know how how it works in the UK but in in the United States for the most part there is a disconnect between who builds the home and who is going to live there
M and radical disconnect a builder or a developer builds the home and their goals are profit right so what is the least I can spend to make it look like they should pay the most right they don’t care about Energy Efficiency they’re never going to pay an energy bill right they care that
It looks Grand enough that someone thinks it’s expensive and right and the person living there has goals about Energy Efficiency and livability and um you know that the space feels good right and because of that disconnect I think there’s Um I don’t know I I feel like that’s that’s the biggest issue at least in the US right is that if we brought that back together and let the people who will live there make decisions right I’m always working with people like that but that is not the
Usual right most people do not hire someone to design a home for them right or figure out how to design a home themselves that is not a normal thing you know yeah so um yeah I think if we close that disconnect I think houses would look radically different here yes
You know yes and then that there’s that whole notion of okay well let’s let’s build let’s design for resale so get that question sometimes like oh well we should do this because of resale and I’m like don’t no no don’t do that and and to me and this is where the builders
Come in too right you’re designing to this notion of what someone might want well who is that person it’s this abstract what a fad I like I don’t like describe who that person is and it’s a generic it’s not anyone and now you’re designing something specific
To a generic that isn’t anyone well no one’s going to respond to that right whereas if you design something that specifically meets your needs and makes you feel at home guaranteed someone walks into that space and goes I feel at home right so that whole notion of you know designed for resale
Like no this is your home designed for you MH you know so I don’t know I feel like there’s all of these other disconnects that um that put us in these sort of stick framed fragile homes that are foxy and you know versus the owner Built Homes is
That most of your clients are then are they are they self-builders in the way that they’re going to actually build it themselves or are they just people that are having a home built for them it’s about a third a third a third so about a third of the people want to like start
To finish build their home um and the way that I work is I stay with them through construction so um they can call me anyone working on their home can call me or email me anytime and I will answer questions through all the way through construction so they’re never like just left hanging
Right um so with an owner Builder there’s always more dialogue right yeah and usually with them if they’ve never built a home before I tell them to get support so work with a builder at least through framing yeah right um and then hire a plumber and hire an electrician
Right so very good advice yeah right um and do you know focus on the natural building bits and all of that um the second third is this sort of hybrid where they want to do something right but um they either don’t have the time or they’re intimidated
They don’t want to sort of build their whole home and so they will hire a builder um and sometimes they’ll just participate in a workshop and then whatever doesn’t get done through the workshop they take it from there um so you know they’re sort of they participate to some degree but they’re
Not taking on the whole thing yeah um and then about a third or you know let the Builder do it [Laughter] and and then what what sort of um as a sort of Market in the US what’s I I get the impression that more people are building their own homes over where you
Are um than in the UK I think the UK self-build Market is is Tiny minuscule um yeah do you do you have a a sort of sense of of how many people are no no not really I think uh what I mean we have have this sort of you know rugged
Individualist thing in the US right and the you know our our our history is you know push out native people and build our own space and take it over right so uh very owner Builder ranchy you know Hands-On history um for good and bad but um what that where that comes into
Legality of building homes is almost everywhere in the US there is some method for an owner to design and build their own home within the building permit structure um and in some places if it’s under a certain size you don’t even need a building permit and in some
Places that size is quite large um like I think this has changed but when I was in Texas it was 2, Square F feet which is what 200 yeah square meters yeah yeah uh I think that’s changed now but you know that’s basically almost every house right
So you didn’t need a permit so uh I Am pro building permit but um yeah so there’s a method for um doing owner Builder everywhere almost everywhere right so yeah so in the designs you spoke a little bit about natural light um and me how how sort of important is that oh
Very yeah so I have H on an intake form I have this sort of little mini questionnaire like what excites you the most and one of the questions is ample natural light right um I have yet to have someone not check that off if they didn’t check that would that be a sorry
We’re not working together no but if they didn’t I my guess would be when they collected photos it would be in the photos um because we are solar powerered right we need the sun to feel good right both physically literally right that’s how we generate vitamin D and that stems
Depression and um all of that but um you know it’s warmth and winter it’s what grows our food it’s you know it’s our Lifeline right like sun and water that’s that’s most of us right yeah um you know it’s the rare person who’s like I would
Like to live in a dark cave right that’s not most people right um yeah so to me natur and and balance natural light so I think there’s a way to bring in lots of light and have it not feel comfortable right so to me that there’s this there’s actually a pattern
Of in pattern language where it talks about having uh light from two sides of a room right and that so if you have if you have let’s say you have two windows in a room if they’re both on one wall the quality of light is not as good as
If one is on one wall and one is on another wall as in opposite walls opposite walls or even 90 degrees from each other okay because instantly you’re balancing the light as it comes in and you’re reducing the glare as it comes in and you have more opportunities for sun
To be streaming in right instead of just being one directional um and so all of these other things happen and if you open those two windows that are on different sides of the room you immediately create positive and negative air pressure and therefore air flow so there’s all of these then side benefits
Of okay I thought I was just making better light but oh I also got ventilation out of it and every time you get more than one benefit out of a solution it’s to me a better and better solution right yes yeah so natural is yeah fantastic it was one of the things
I really struggled to design for this house is you know how how big is too big on Windows uh you know I didn’t want it to feel dark yeah and I I wanted to have a a roof light that you can see above me and
I I knew that I wanted that to be North facing so it didn’t create hard hard light coming in from the Sun uh and that was pretty much all I knew about about Windows and I just had to kind of feel my way through and I made little
Models that I sat out in the sun and kind of poked my phone into the the model so I could see what the the light was looking like yeah no that’s brilliant yeah yeah yeah it it was yeah a nightmare well not a nightmare it was um it was a challenge that
I throughout the build I’ve I’ve sort of gone did I do that right oh that’s too small now oh that’s you know too big I guess I’ll know when know it’s you it’s a a more complete thing but I think that’s it’s it’s like it’s like anything
The first time you do it you your learning curve is much higher right so figuring out what you know and what you don’t know and how can I know what I don’t know so okay I’m not sure about how the light is going to play so I’m
Going to build a model and I’m going to shine the actual light into the model in the orientation that it will be right um and and be a little scientist to figure out like okay well what’s that going to look like and and at least approximate
It right yeah and then make the best decision you can and then you’re going to live there and you’re going to learn okay this worked really well good job and you’re gonna figure out why and then things that don’t work you’re going to figure out why and if you ever did it
Again it would be better and then the next one better and the next one better right so that it’s just the nature of things one of the first things I tell clients is your home is not going to be perfect right that’s not feasible it’s not like there’s always going to be
Things that you you second guess it’s just the way it is yeah you know so yeah I suppose yeah there’s a lot of pressure about that kind of this is my forever home everything needs to be exact you know I guess that’s that’s unhealthy isn’t it well it’s for most people they
Do it one time right I mean I do it more than once but they do it one time for them and so there’s this huge emotional weight on it and it’s usually the most money anyone spends on something so there’s a financial weight on it and you combine those two things
And it’s this like volcano of it has to be just right you know um and so we get we get close you know but I always say let go of perfection because that’s not yeah that’s yeah that’s that’s good there’s a thing that I often think and
I’ I’ve talked about on the podcast before but I went to a Swedish uh Museum about Viking long ships and they said that they always put one deliberate mistake in because they believed only the gods were perfect and and I always like that because when I you know I’m building
Something and I do a little mistake I’m like there we go there it is I love that I love that yeah um so uh biophilic design is that something you’re you’re sort of consciously putting into into buildings or do you think that just comes about with with the
Materials yeah I would I it’s something I love and something I’m inspired by but I I would it’s unfair for me to say that it’s conscious yeah okay I mean yeah looking at your your your photos of of the builds I mean there there’s lots of Rich biophilic elements in there you
Know trees in the round and you know natural Edge Timber and you know beautiful things that I mean I I trained in uh on the west coast in uh in Oregon and you know we always talked about you this this feeling of of natural builds
And you why do they feel so good and and then suddenly I discovered biophilic design just last year and it was suddenly ah there’s behind behind that feeling and you know there are studies and there is understanding it’s yeah it’s wonderful thing to to realize yeah yeah I would
Say that that is more about sort of how my my personal appreciation for materials and you know I feel like in most cases the less you do to man handle them or woman handle them um the more they feel like what they were right so
If a if a tree doesn’t get heun or milled and it can stay a tree right oh all of a sudden Nature’s in my home right yeah yeah absolutely yeah it’s more it’s more from that piece of that sort of TAC tiess and uh just a respect
For what nature gives us yeah that’s lovely um are there are there any uh sort of red lines that uh you won’t cross in terms of you know if a client says I want this it’s definitely going to be in Here I guess in terms of design and maybe materials there probably is but I can’t think of what that I’ve never made a [Laughter] list um I mean I try to minimize concrete right so right out of the gate it’s it’s it’s challenging to completely eliminate here because the alternative is so
Expensive um or requires a very high skill set um so I just try to minimize it um so you know one can argue whether that’s the right approach or wrong approach but that’s sort of my Approach um like if they wanted all the walls to be concrete I think that but I don’t
Think they would come to me because that’s not you know I think at this point they’re weeding themselves out yes they’re not going to look at the your body of work and say I’d like that but in concrete yeah exactly yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah so I it’s a hard an
Question to answer because I I’m sure yes but I don’t I I I’m struggling to articulate it maybe I haven’t had enough coffee yet but well I think maybe it’s that it’s it’s a it’s sort of a question that asks you to focus on negativity and
I get the impression that’s not the way you work um for the most part yeah that’s true yeah yeah yeah so yeah there you go bad question from me no it’s not a bad question it’s a good qu it’s I something I’m gonna think about actually
So yeah that’s a good question and then you’ve talked about a little bit there about efficiency in use um that I feel so when I was training in Oregon I feel like if the embodied energy was kind of held in slightly higher regard than efficiency in use so kind of in use
Energy uh it felt like a lot of the focus was getting the the closest natural materials uh and that was that was good um yeah this was this was 12 years ago so it’s you know I’m sure you it’s a an Ever moving goalpost but um
How how sort of conscious are you of of creating efficient buildings to me the biggest energy Association for certainly for most natural buildings but probably for most buildings is how much energy do they use over time because that’s an annual forever number and you can if it’s a it’s a if
It’s like say the concrete right so if I’m saying yes to concrete which a lot of natural Builders will scream and pull their hair out right um but I’m not doing concrete floors right it’s just a grade beam right so there I am justifying it but um so there there’s a
There’s a um you know definitely an embodied energy associated with that and there’s a huge CO2 footprint associated with that so right out of the gate I will use concrete that has um 40% less cement in it so fly ash and coal slag um so that we can offset some of that CO2
Footprint um so trying to make better decisions about what that concrete is and then once it’s there that impact is done done and now it gets amortized over the whole life of that building versus if I build something that requires like it’s all mass and so it
Has no insulation and it requires much more heating than it would like sure you can get comfortable but you’re using a lot more to do it and for more months of the year to do it um that is every year you have that unless you go on vacation winter right
Um or if you design something that in order to be comfortable you need air conditioning instead of eliminating the need for air conditioning right that is every summer right so to me it’s it’s not the only thing but to me that I will I personally will hold that in slightly higher
Regard um but that said I’m always looking for the material that is is available from the building site first yeah right so we dig the footer we save that clay we build the walls we build the floor we plaster the walls right um and that’s always number one and then
Okay then it stems out from there so um if somebody says you know I want a certain I don’t know like I rarely use um bamboo um I use like bamboo for steaks because we have it everywhere here it’s invasive but um bamboo products I rarely use even though
Those are sort of touted as green um because almost all of them use for Malahide glues um except for there’s a product line that I think it comes out of Korea but I could be wrong um but they’re all from for us 6,000 miles away minimum that’s halfway around the world
Right so to me I’m going to use that less often or only if that’s the one aesthetic that works for somebody right I will try to talk to them about okay so here’s the impact that you’re buying into are you okay with that right um and
Even for us cork right so that’s 3,000 miles away yeah right um which is for us the same as California but I also try to not if I can bring in a a recycled glass countertop from Brooklyn which is you know 200 miles away I’m going to do that
As opposed to California which is 3,000 miles away right so um it’s not that I ignore embodied energy and transportation and to me there’s that whole life cycle of materials where you look at you know what is the environmental impact of acquisition of the materials and then um what is the
Manufacturer and how far did it come and is it safe to install is it is it create does it promote a healthy home in every way and then what happens to it at the end of its life right so that that’s always part of the conversation and I we
Have a whole meeting about materials with with my clients and I I make them understand life cycle analysis because I am cruel and heartless um so so those things don’t get ignored um but I also ask them to prioritize what’s important to you and then I am always holding that energy
Over time piece and I won’t let them stray from Oh how wonderful was that goodness I had such a nice time talking to C um so if you’ve enjoyed that then head straight on over to the second part of our conversation which is episode 71 is focused Less on the design aspect and more on the materials common myths and
We talk about women in construction if this was your first building sustainability hit the Subscribe button to catch all future episodes and if you’ve got a moment love it if you could leave a review there’s a link in the show notes it just take two minutes and
Makes a huge huge difference thank you thank you really appreciate you listening hope you’re having a great day until next time bye