In 1948, James Baldwin left for France, hoping to find an escape from the racism he experienced in America. But Baldwin returned to the U.S. frequently, to witness and write about the struggle of the Civil Rights movement. Today, Lindsay is joined by Dr. Eddie S. Glaude, Jr., Professor of African American Studies at Princeton. When Dr. Glaude experienced his own crisis of faith in America, he turned to the works of James Baldwin to reconnect with the hope that a better America is possible, if we only reckon with its past. Dr. Glaude is the author of Begin Again: James Baldwin’s America and Its Urgent Lessons for Our Own.
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A listener note this episode contains strong language and may not be suitable for Everyone imagine it’s the summer of 1973 you’re a 22-year-old correspondent for Time Magazine traveling through France to write a series of stories about African-American artists living abroad last week you spent a glorious afternoon in the home of the expat writer James Baldwin interviewing him and his friend the singer and Dancer
Josephine Baker over bottles of wine you were practically moved to tears at being in the presence of the man who’ become a hero to young black writers of your generation you’re proud of the story you turned in a few days ago and you’ve been eagerly waiting a call from your
Editor hello hey it’s Tom calling from New York I wanted to talk to you about this story great I’ve been looking forward to hearing from you I’ve been thinking maybe I didn’t do enough to capture the beauty of Baldwin’s house in St Paul devance I mean the light was
Spectacular and all those Rosemary Hedges and strawberry fields and grape arbors whoa whoa slow down a second what I wanted to tell you is that we’ve decided not to run the story wait what that’s right we’re killing it sorry kid but why we’ve decided Baldwin is a bit
Past his prime he’s P I know you want the by line but I’m not sure our readers think he’s relevant anymore not relevant are you kidding me after all he did for the Civil Rights Movement he’s written some of the most powerful novels and essays about black life in America sure
But what’s he done lately we’re in news magazine what’s new about Baldwin and Josephine Baker she hasn’t been back to America in ages nobody knows them anymore you’re stunned on some level you knew Baldwin’s time as the fiery spokesman for black Americans was on the Wayne that a new generation of writers
Was taking his place still he recently published an essay collection no name in the street and his Reflections on the murders of Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X were especially poignant you’re making a mistake this man has borne witness to the struggles of the Civil Rights Movement for the last
Decade and he’s still relevant he’s got plenty to say about about race in America in the’ 70s about Vietnam and Watergate and life for black Americans in Europe I know you’re disappointed but hey at least you got to see France don’t worry we’ll find you another story you’re crushed and confused you
Can’t help but see this as another reminder that black artists aren’t valued the same as their white peers what your editor probably wanted was some gossip or rumor not an Ode to a great American author if you’re enjoying American history tellers but could do without the ads
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Rejected his story the meeting at Baldwin’s home which included Josephine Baker and the author Cecil Brown would later become the foundation for one of Baldwin’s final Works an unfinished play called called the welcome table named for the outdoor space where Baldwin entertained visitors at his home in France Baldwin wrote the play just
Before his death in 1987 here with me now to discuss James Baldwin’s Legacy and the ways in which his message about race in America still resonates today is Dr Eddie s GLA Jr Dr GLA is the James S McDonald professor of African-American studies at Princeton and the author of Begin Again James
Baldwins America and its urgent lessons for our own Dr Eddie s GLA Jr welcome to American history tellers thanks for having me excited for the conversation now you began to write your book begin again while you were experiencing a crisis of faith in America what was that crisis
And where did it stem from well you know we had just elected an African-American president in 2008 served two terms there was this activism that we saw emerge with black lives matter during those eight years there was a kind of intensity of a kind of debate where we were grappling with the
Contradictions at the heart of the American experiment and then 2016 happened and of course there was a runup to 2016 when Barack Obama was elected in 2008 we saw voting rights kind of roll back across States as we saw voter restri rtion laws passed across the US
And of course there was a tea party and the Tea Party had the kind of same DNA of what was to emerge in 2016 but it all for me came to a head when the nation decided to choose Donald Trump as its president and I was just grappling with
How do we go from the first African-American president to this level of vitriol and more importantly Lindsay I was trying to figure out what should I say to all of those young folk those young people who were in the streets who had risked so much to try to hold the
Nation to account how would I speak to them and lastly how would I speak to myself how could I find my footing in the face of this choice that the nation had made and how did this um drive you to review James Baldwin’s work well I’ve been teaching Baldwin for a while the
Fire next time and reading no name in the street reading is non-fiction fairly closely for a while and I knew that he had to struggle with the nation’s betrayal you know what did it mean for the Civil Rights Movement to collapse in front of him for him to witness his
Friends murdered or lose their minds or leave the country the radicalization of young people who had been so committed to nonviolence but who decided to embrace black power and then of course the nation elected Ronald Reagan and so I knew that he had struggled with this sense not just simply of deep
Disappointment but a fundamental questioning of Faith uh in the country and so I wanted to mine his work for resources to not only help the country and help young folk but to help myself so in James Baldwin’s not only thinking but perhaps his era you found a mirror
Of your own I found similarities you know continuities Echoes the rot that I was grappling with I think Jimmy was struggling with he spoke to my spirit well let’s talk about James Baldwin in general when he wasn’t in the United States he lived in France and also
Istanbul how do you think being away from the United States helped him understand his home country better well for on on a number of different levels right uh personally particularly after he acquired a level of Fame being out of the country allowed him the time the space the Solitude even though he liked
To party a lot but it allowed him the time and space and Solitude to get his work done but I also think getting some distance some critical distance from the nation from the White Noise as it were allowed him to understand the inner workings of the country to see you know
Its interior self and of course exploration examination of the Interior life of the country meant for Baldwin and for me an examination of One’s Own interior life and I guess stepping out of the country Lindsay was so important because he didn’t have to deal with confront daily right the assault on
One’s standing the sense of disregard America could be seen a little bit more clearly from a distance I think yeah well I guess then that there’s another parallel between you and Baldwin because in 2018 you were teaching in Heidelberg Germany and I suppose that allowed you to work on your book without
The constant noise or the daily kind of headlines yeah and for me it takes on a different register right because I’m I’m on television a lot right so I find myself repeatedly being asked to respond to the news cycle um I remember when we landed in Berlin and then we made our
Way to heidleberg and went to the old city or the OT and there right in front of me was a black man on the ground screaming for his life as German police officers had their knees in his back and I was like Wow and I felt this sense of horror and relief
Simultaneously the horror was of course you know seeing what what I’d been seeing in the US for for years the relief is that I didn’t have to say anything about it on camera so I went back to my apartment and I just started writing and it became clear to me in that moment
What begin again would be about as I was in this small flat in heidleberg Germany writing about an experience that I had just witnessed reaching for Jimmy and at that point the book came into view I’m interested by this event in heidleberg um you say it was a relief not to have
To dissect this to relive this on camera in in a lens of being a black American in America but I wonder uh was there any other relief felt being in Germany as a black American well I suspect looking back perhaps there was a sense of relief
I didn’t have to own or carry the burden of being black in a country with the particular history that ours has but of course you know you carry all of that stuff with you wherever you go it’s in your gut and I think this is Baldwin’s
Insight you know he talks about this in his book nobody knows my name right he thought he was running away from the us but he was carrying it all with him and what he had to do while he was in France and overseas was to figure out how to
Vomit it all up and I think as a writer that’s what he was trying to do and what I think I was relieved to not have to teach classes not have to go on television not have to travel the country and explain the current racial Mala I could actually sit down at my
Study look out the window and it was some horrible 1970s architecture in terms of the terms of the apartment so it wasn’t this stunning view right in heidleberg but I could find myself on the page and I had the time and the Solitude I could be quiet because I
Didn’t have language because I didn’t speak German so it was just me in my head thinking about this place called America that’s so Central to who I take myself to be now while you you were there in Europe you also took a trip from idleberg to see Baldwin’s home in
The south of France what did you see when you got there what what stood out to you on the grounds of his home oh my goodness it was so amazing you know I land in France and you know I get into this taxi and my taxi cab driver looks
Like he’s straight from South Jersey slick back hair white jeans and he’s muscular I say to him he’s practicing his English I say to him what I’m in the country for that I want to go to this famous writer’s home and he drove me and I remember walking up the street seeing
The cranes I knew that they were transforming Baldwin’s home into apartments or Cayenne Condominiums but it was shocking to see the result and only a little piece of it was left huh and I remember Kristoff saying we should go see if someone’s here I was like what he says what what
Can we lose he just walks up and knocks on the door and lo and behold there were these folks and once they realized that we weren’t shopping that we weren’t a couple and that we weren’t shopping for perhaps a a Scenic condominium they got really nervous and then they pointed to
This kind of barren part of the old house that was going to be preserved right it was a ruin and it was a ruin in the service of a certain kind of leisure ironic I think yeah it was ironic describe that irony it was a ruin
In a certain sense of leisure what does that mean Baldwin has a a critique of consumer culture he has a critique of the way markets distort our sense of self our sense of belonging right where materialism disfigures our moral sense or at least it changes it it affects the
Magnet of our moral compass and here I was in St Paul devant at his former home the place where he found some sense of Peace the place where he took his last breath and it was being torn down for some Scenic Condominiums and it’s a stunning view cuz the old city is right
Above his head and then he looks out on this Valley I can imagine him getting up late at night uh smoking his cigarette with the glass of Johnny Walker Black in his hand looking out and writing but here it was a commercial Enterprise in death the place that provided him so
Much comfort had become in part the very thing he was criticizing when he was alive now you mentioned this was the location where Baldwin spent his last days but this is after he returned to the states and then again moved back to France why do you think he didn’t stay
In the US why did he remain at the end in France oh you know to be honest Lindsay I think he needed to be away in order to tend to himself I don’t think he ever turn he never turned his back on America because his family was here you know he
Bought the building where all of the family lived his mother lived on a floor Brothers nieces and nephews right he had a place to come back to but uh America threatened to overrun Balwin it seems to me and what I mean by that is that its contradictions enraged him and I think
He he knew that he had found a place where he could be fully himself without the baggage of America’s Hangups American history R tellers is sponsored by netsuite it’s said that if you don’t know your numbers you don’t know your business but there might be just three numbers you need to know 36,000 is the number of businesses which upgraded to netsuite by Oracle the number one Cloud Financial system for
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Listening now and binge them all Before his passing Baldwin did return to the United States in 1957 and then returned at a time uh right in the middle of the emerging struggle for civil rights what do you think he saw as his role as a Black Rider in the Civil Rights struggle to Bear witness when he
Came back you know not only saw Little Rock and the dawning of the modern Civil Rights Movement as an artist his task is to as a poet is to Bear witness to the complexity of Human Experience to render it so that people can grab hold of it and so here he is
Watching these babies these spiritual Aristocrats he calls them watching these babies face the crowds the the rabbit mob and as a poet he has to figure out what to do with that let’s talk about two works that you you say you often teach together the fire next time and no
Name in the street what do you remember about reading the first one the fire next time published in 1963 oh my God that book transformed my life you know the fire next time is this extraordinary book that offers in so many ways an account of the challenge
That the nation faces with regards to race matters but Baldwin does this by way of his own biography and through an engagement with the Nation of Islam and at the end he offers us remedy well it’s not really a remedy but a response to the rage that
Emerges out of living in a country defined by white supremacy and that that answer is love I remember the first essay you know the letter to my nephew the way the intimate way in which he’s trying to pass on a certain kind of knowledge a certain kind of insight
Trust your experience oh trust your experience trust what you see trust what you know trying to impart a kind of wisdom that is so important right we we can’t become that which we hate understanding the importance of love the language of love alongside the rage the sentences were angry in that book and
Then invoking love gave me a language Lindsay for the turmoil that was in me gave me a language to love and be angry at the same time it helped me Orient myself to my father differently it was a transformative book being angry and loving at the same time is probably
Something that that many people need permission to allow themselves yeah especially when you’re catching hell I just remember my dad being angry you know I’m old enough to have watched uh the first airing of the eyes on the prize series it was an event you know
I’m a Country Boy from Mississippi and I just remember my father just boiling over with rage maybe his this rage is the reason why he’s so difficult with me with us and I didn’t know that he had deposited that rage in me I’ve always been a kind of aware kid always taking
In the environment but there’s something about the Mississippi air something about the soil and so I get to Mor House’s College in Atlanta the alma mat of Martin Luther King Jr and that rage just begins to bloom I had to do something with it and Baldwin just
Gave me resources but also to love Baldwin said we have to pay attention to the material conditions of black life but we also got to pay attention to the interior life of Black Folk and he’s always concerned about what kind of human being we aspire to become and he
Has this wonderful line that almost brings me to tears every time I invoke it or every time I read it you know he says I want us to create our S without the need for an enemy and all of that has its Beginnings in a robust understanding of love for those who
Haven’t read it uh is the book biographical I’m writing right now the introduction to the Everyman Edition published by vintage of all of his non-fiction and I think to read his non-fiction from notes of a Native Son all the way to the evidence of things not seen is to read Baldwin’s Memoir you
Know even when he’s writing about social issues his biography is implicated in the stories and so this is a really insightful question I think to my mind to read all of his non-fiction is to read his story which is a vexed Journey it’s called the fire next time where
Does that title come from oh it comes out of a riff on a Biblical passage out of the slave cont text right God gave a rainbow sign next time fire next time right you know this is that preacher in him Baldwin he’s uh what 14 years old
And when he becomes a preacher you could tell that he was probably a really really good preacher so that referenced the fire next time straight out of a Biblical framework as well as how that framework was deployed in the context of those who were held in bondage well
Speaking of preachers in Baldwin while he was in the US was in Selma he saw saw the struggle and violence of the Civil Rights Movement very close and he saw its leaders murdered what do you think the impact of Dr King’s death was on Baldwin it broke his heart there’s a
Powerful moment in no name in the street there something broke in him he says in so many ways he was grappling with the fact that the country had killed Dr Martin Luther King Jr the Apostle of Love they killed King really and then he offers that extraordinary formulation
It’s a paraphrase but you know human beings are these amazing Miracles and sobs at the same time and you have to treat them as the Miracles that they can be so what does it mean that human beings can be sons of and miracles at the same time you know the
Murder of Medgar Evers the murder of Malcolm X the murder of Martin Luther King Jr along with the deaths of so many of his friends what conclusion might he be forced to draw about the moral State about the soul of America after that yeah so it broke his heart so this is
The book then no name in the street in which Baldwin has a reaction to to the violent repercussions of the Civil Rights Movement what was your reaction to this new chapter in Baldwin’s life and thinking I’ve always been fascinated with no name in the street there is a
Sense in which as Baldwin tried to do in Far next time with the Nation of Islam he’s doing with the Black Panther Party and no name in the street but you know that book is an account of a moment that has collapsed or is collapsing and he’s trying to come to
Terms with what it means for a moment like the Civil Rights Movement like black power to to collapse in the face of white backlash it’s a book of wound of Cain of trauma and what’s so fascinating about it Lindsay is that he’s trying to figure out how to write that trauma that wound
That pain memory is fragmented right he tells you at the very beginning of the book don’t trust my memories and then the book constantly falls back on itself trying to account for this moment in some ways Lindsay no name in the street is the spine of begin
Again it anchors my book because I’m trying to Grapple with the same things now in no name in the Baldwin also addresses his sexual orientation already he’s a black man in America but now he’s a black gay man how do you think he was received by members of the Civil Rights
Movement oh my goodness Baldwin sexuality in the context of the Civil Rights Movement was always kind of viewed with suspicion he was out and so Dr King wanted to keep him at arms length many of these preachers who were members of the Southern Christian leadership conference wanted to keep him
At arms length then you think about the hyper masculinist politics that that defined black power you know there’s this wonderful story Baldwin’s at an event for the Black Panther Party and us which is another organization nationalist organization and someone has an epileptic seizure and they have a gun
And the Gun starts firing off now on the stage is Malcolm X’s Widow Betty shabaz and her children everybody runs for cover as the shot gunshots go off bald screams the babies and he runs and he covers them everybody else they Run for Cover but this queer black man who was
Small and frail runs to cover the children gives you a sense of of who he was you know his sexuality was just him he didn’t billboard it in any deliberate way you know he was always skeptical of a certain kind of identity politics but Baldwin you know what 1954 he writes giovan’s
Room it’s a love story but it’s a samesex love story and no us publisher would publish it 54 can you imagine in the 1950s it had to be published in London Baldwin’s famous quip is like you can’t hold that over me I told you but in no
Name in the street he has this wonderful and extraordinary formulation about the relationship between race sexual desire and power where this a white man whose power is such that he could save you from a lynching or cause you to be lynched reaches in between his legs and grabs his member and Baldwin describes
His watery eyes and that description Lindsay is an echo of a description that he used in notes of a Native Son in in early essay when he’s talking about sentimentality and here it is 19 1972 and he’s taking the same image right that there was something empty
Something that this man could not say could not feel that he was trapped and it had made him monstrous so Baldwin is constantly thinking about the relationship between race desire sex and power this book’s title no name in the street comes from The Book of Job his
Roots shall be dried up beneath and above shall his Branch be cut off his remembrance Shall Perish from the earth and he shall have no name in the street what do you think Baldwin was trying to say with this title it’s a warning part of what he’s trying to suggest here is
What does it mean to turn one’s back on these things right what will be the consequence of one’s failures you say it’s a warning but what is it a warning of what are these failures remember the book is accounting for the collapse of the black Freedom Movement of the mid
20th Century what is the nation doing how has it responded to the sacrifice of these folk what has it done to its babies it is a prophetic declaration Baldwin is in the middle of a betrayal Nixon is ascending Reagan is 8 years away the kind of mass incarceration of
Black Folk the infrastructure the architecture is being built at this moment his remembrance Shall Perish from the earth and he shall have no name this is the shining City on the hill so it’s not only about us it’s about the nation as a Whole it’s 2023 and it appears that we can’t buy things anymore we can only subscribe to them there’s subscriptions for everything these days from streaming services to razors fitness programs to pet food even Bacon of the Month it’s no wonder it can feel impossible to keep tabs on what you’re paying for every
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For their debate oh William F Buckley is The Mastermind in so many ways the theoretical Mastermind of much of contemporary conservatism is a Yale graduate editor of the National Review is giving voice at least to at a certain level of sophistication of the philosophical view that shapes goldw water and the like and
So his understanding of conservatism is on the ascendants you know in this moment so he’s a very very important figure who will help determine the frame of our living since 1980 and before so for him to debate Baldwin in this moment is actually quite remarkable the topic was that the American dream
Exists at the expense of African-Americans and Baldwin answered in the affirmative and Buckley the negative Buckley in in very interesting ways offered language that we would hear throughout the 80s and 90s and even today around victimization around the greatness of the American project about inevitable progress and the like and
Baldwin took us to the heart of the lie that uh animates America’s self-conception now James Baldwin is obviously an established and quite talented writer but these debates the televised debates illustrate to us how remarkable an orator he is how eloquent and composed he is as a speaker
Absolutely remember he comes out of the church as Albert rabbito says the black church is black America’s first theater there’s a sense in which Baldwin’s ability to turn a phrase his obvious Brilliance and his courage meant that he would say things and say them in such a way that it would
Cut to the heart of the matter and of course he would say it with his particular flare here’s a clip from that debate with Buckley it comes as a great shock around the age of five or six or seven to discover that the flag to which you have pledged Allegiance along with
Everybody else has not pledged allegiance to you so there we hear like his prototypical poetry even in speaking he opposes two things it’s um very easy to feel where he’s going he makes it attractive to listen to him yeah yeah and in that moment too he’s implicating himself right he’s rooting for the
Cowboys not realizing that he’s the Indian is another way in which he put it right in a different context so there’s a kind of Revelation about the contradiction the hypocrisy of the nation and as a black man as a black person this revelatory knowledge unsettles and places you in this extraordinarily complicated
Position in relation to the nation that has made you who you are it’s at once Revelation and condemnation do do you think you could characterize what Buckley’s rebuttal was to Baldwin in this debate oh Buckley’s rebuttal let me see if I can characterize it in a generous way you should be grateful
Jimmy look at you you would not be possible if it wasn’t for the grandness of the American experiment look around the world look at the state of black people and look at you look at the means the wealth of black Americans right so I think his response
Is that of the paternalist one could think about the paternalistic approach of southern plantation owners you should be thankful that we’ve given you the possibility to become James Baldwin and you can see in Jimmy’s eyes he’s seething with rage at the condescension at the end of this debate
There was a vote held I suppose among the audience members asking if the American dream does come at the expense of black people in America do you recall the outcome of that vote oh yeah yeah they voted overwhelmingly in the affirmative and then gave Baldwin a standing ovation yeah so Baldwin woned
Debate why are we still talking about this debate from 1965 well it’s a couple of reasons I think one is because of the Resurgence of of Baldwin over the last few years he’s turned up in our political discourse in in a variety of ways and in some ways he’s so prophetic that the
Nation or some of us have finally caught up with him but I also think it’s important because the content of that Exchange in so many ways reflects the political landscape of our current Days of our current troubles Baldwin may have won the debate but Buckley won the war Buckley’s views through the Reagan
Administration defined the political landscape since 1980 and by 1987 when Baldwin takes his last breath Black America is more interested in what kind of sweater bill Cosby’s wearing and what Baldwin has to say so there’s something strikingly familiar about what is being debated then and what we’re struggling
With now we’re approaching the the 100th anniversary of Baldwin’s birth in August of next year we’ve returned to a theme over and over that he was struggling uh with themes or topics that are very similar to what we may be struggling with today and I wonder then if you
Think ultimately he lost his faith in America and that was the end of it no I don’t think he lost his faith in America no no no no no let me say it differently he didn’t lose his faith in us right America is an argument it is not a
Fact you know America is is more than an idea it’s a fight it’s a battle W each daily so he didn’t give up on that fight he didn’t give up on the idea that we could be different that we could be better he didn’t give up on that but he was very
Clear by the end of his days that the country that a certain segment of the country clung had a White Knuckle grip on a certain set of fantasies about who mattered more than others you know who mattered and who didn’t this notion of of whiteness as he put it has choke the
Life out of many of a human being here the price of the ticket as he put it what is the price of the ticket is to become white to leave the particularity of who you are at the door and in becoming white means that you have to
Deny the standing the equal regard of another so he did not lose faith in us to be otherwise he didn’t lose hope but you know as he said um in Istanbul in an interview in Ebony magazine you know hope is invented every day I love that formulation hope is invented every day
In your book you include a quote of Baldwin’s summation of his life would you share it with us sure this is actually from the documentary James Baldwin the price of the ticket and it his Brother David who’s trying to remember or he’s recounting Jimmy’s summation of his life and he says I pray
I’ve done my work when I’ve gone from here in all the turmoil through the wreckage and rubble and through whatever when someone finds themselves digging through the ruins I pray that somewhere in that wreckage they’ll find me somewhere in that wreckage that they use something I’ve left
Behind and I suppose it’s a good closing question to ask you how you’ve used what oldd one has left behind oh my goodness lindsy the old man has helped saved my life how I’ve used what he’s left behind I’ve used the words as a Sal his urging to love my father unconditionally to
Imagine myself in the most expansive of terms that’s just me but I’ve used his words also to speak to the nation to try to tell the truth unvarnished straight no chase to insist that America grow that the country grow up to leave behind the myths and the fantasies and to confront
Who and what it is so that it might discover who we really are you know we can’t choose our inheritance but we we can definitely choose our ancestors and he is an ancestor who is in so many ways The Wind Beneath My Wings well Dr Edie
Es glaw Jr thank you so much for speaking with me today on American history tellers thank you to such a wonderful conversation that was my conversation with Dr Eddie s GLA Jr his New York Times best selling book Begin Again James Baldwin’s America and its urgent lessons for our own is available
Now from Crown publishing from wondery this is our seventh and final episode of Great American Authors from American history tellers in our next season in December of 1938 two German physicists achieved a scientific feat previously thought impossible possible splitting the nucleus of a uranium atom scientists around the world immediately knew that a
Powerful new form of energy was on the verge of being harnessed by mankind United States quickly launched the Manhattan Project assembling the greatest mines on Earth in a race to build the first atomic bomb which they believe could not only win World War II but possibly end all future
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Hosted edited and produced by Me Lindsey Graham for Airship audio editing and sound design by Molly Bach music by Lindsay Graham voice acting by Ace Anderson additional writing by Neil Thompson this episode was produced by Paulie Striker and Alita rosansky senior interview episode producer is Peter aruni coordinating producers Desi block
Managing producer Matt Gant senior managing producer Ryan lore senior producer Andy Herman executive producers are Jenny low Beckman and Marshall Louie for Wonder on this podcast we’ve shared a lot of incredible stories of human resilience and survival that make you say wow and we’re excited to tell you
About another podcast that’ll make your kids say Wow Wow in the world is the number one podcast for curious kids and grown-ups every episode takes you on a cartoon for the ear Adventure think a visit to space or prehistoric times while you learn about human Ingenuity and the latest scientific discoveries in
Two recent episodes I learned how spider silk might be able to be used as an alternative to plastic and that white paint might just help fight climate change so on your next adventure with the kids in your life be sure to hit play on Wow in the world follow wow in
The world on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to wow in the world early and AD free right now by joining wondery Plus in the wondery app or wondery kids Plus in apple podcasts