My latest guest is Gillian Horribine – she is an esteemed educational psychologist and a dedicated lecturer at the University of Dundee.
The episode delved into the fascinating world of educational psychology, where we explore the intricacies of the human mind, learning, and personal growth. I also tried to understand how a local authority educational psychologist plays a vital role during times of crisis, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, wars, and periods of personal loss, by providing crucial support and guidance to individuals, families, and educational institutions.
Whether you’re a teacher, student, parent, or simply curious about the psychology of education, this episode is your doorway to an understanding of the human mind and its role in the lifelong journey of learning. Enjoy!
Disclaimer:
Life can feel challenging sometimes and there is a lot going on in the world at the moment. Anything discussed in this episode is not intended as therapeutic intervention, but we hope that it might offer some helpful points for personal reflection. If you would like help to discuss your current situation or aspects of life that feel too much, there are a number of services available to talk to.
A range of support services within Dundee University, listed here:
https://www.dundee.ac.uk/student-services , including a counselling service.
Samaritans: https://www.samaritans.org/
Papyrus: https://www.papyrus-uk.org/
To get emergency help, you can visit your local A&E department or call NHS 111 (England, Scotland and N. Ireland), NHS Direct (Wales)* or 999 and ask for some support
Chapters:
0:01 Introduction
0:25 Early Life
12:55 The Road to become an Educational Psychologist
21:08 The first day at work as an Educational Psychologist
25:10 Educational Psychologist – Job Profile
34:30 Educational psychologist – during times of crisis
44:01 Things I enjoy – as an Educational psychologist
58:17 Dealing with War (macro level) and Personal grief (micro level) – Reflection
#beinghuman #empoweringminds #educationalpsychology
Jillian thank you so much for making the time for me today um so the first question can be like where were you born and raised ah okay I so I was actually born in a town called AR broth which is about 20 minutes north of dunde so quite
Close by it’s a small smallish I guess um traditionally fishing Town um and yeah I grew up there and I think by the time I got to 18 years old I was very keen to leave um although looking back it was really a great place to grow up I would say
Um it’s funny when you go back to somewhere where you grew up you see it in a different light I think so I moved away from there when I was 18 and went to study my undergrad in Glasgow at Glasgow University uh and while I was there I
Did an exchange here so I went to New Zealand for I was away for about 18 months um and did a bit of traveling when I was over there and on the way back came VI Cambodia and did a bit of um voluntary work there and then I did
My fourth year of my undergrad in Glasgow again I moved back home for a little while and then um decided I wasn’t didn’t want to be there for for too long at that stage um and went to teach English in Japan for a while um yeah and came back and oh what happened
After that I think at that point I realized I wanted to do something in Psychology um my undergrad was in Psychology but I think up until that point I wasn’t quite sure where I wanted to take this I think I was wondering you know what what am I going to do with
Life um but after I came back from that I had a little bit more of a focus and I thought no I I would quite like to do something um in the psychology field I really liked working with people um I really liked working in educational contexts so I was doing a
Bit of teaching at that time I’d kind of noticed that I’d I’d worked with children and young people at various points um it wasn’t necessarily intentional I guess that was just the kind of thing that I was drawn to um and so at that stage I thought yeah this is
Maybe something that I would quite like to look into a little bit more um and so I got an assistant assistant psychologist job um and yeah took that forward and really really enjoyed that and then wanted to pursue the training program to get onto educational psychology really so I
Studed that at Dundee so I now teach on that program in Dy and that was also the program that I trained on so that’s quite nice um so like from like Arro um Glasgow and then New Zealand couple of Asian countries yeah Japan oh my God
This is quite a bit I mean you you were still very young then isn’t it yeah so that was um I think I got back from Japan um probably when I early 20s 24 25 something like that yeah um so I think I was pretty Keen to see the world or see
Parts of it at least um just that awareness that there’s so much more out there and being curious about it I think yeah like one close question can be like I mean this this I always asked like looking back I mean your parents’ role I mean in like shaping your understanding
About the world do you have any earliest memories where no I don’t know like it’s like some kind of political Consciousness or some kind of social Consciousness that kind of thing yeah do you know I think what my mom and dad always tried to kind of
Instill in me is a bit of a sense of social responsibility so not to sort of live in isolation but to connect yourself with others and my mom is a very um caring person and is always busy doing things for other people H and that’s a real
Value base of them I think is to like you know be aware of the privilege you come with I suppose and I don’t mean that in a you know we’re not super wealthy or anything like that I just mean that the education we have in this country
And um the opportunities that we have as well you know being able to recognize that and try and help others and be open to being helped yourself and and those kinds of values I I think but and I will say as well you know part of why I um
Wanted to work in a university too is that some of the most formative times I can remember were actually conversations with my peers in my undergrad the friends I made there and the same again when I came back to do my postgrad I think it’s a very unique feeling
Situation um as a young adult and then a slightly older adult um to be in a learning context and and be encouraged to be thinking and to be opening our minds and thinking again and and being critical in a healthy sort of you know open way to be curious I think those
Conversations as well and meeting people from different places being on a campus you know it’s very um energizing for me and I think those principles are really important for us to support and encourage I mean I I mean I need to touch a bit Arro as well um I I quite
Love Arro I mean it’s oh you know it 20 minutes drive from my place and yeah in the cliffs I mean I love those CS I’ve got like a couple of students who actually came from Arro and I don’t know like they they’re the I’m still in touch with them uh they’re the
Kindest people oh really oh that’s lovely it’s like fishing Town isn’t it the pictures the coastline it is yeah do you think that kind of setting also help growing up yeah I I definitely do I think you know like I said earlier I think by the time I got to 18 I really
Felt quite desperate to leave because I was just itching to see the rest of the world but looking back I can see how beneficial I think that was in many ways because it wasn’t incredibly small but it also wasn’t the size of a city so and
You I remember if you were to go out on the High Street on a Saturday you were guaranteed to know the majority of people that you were passing on the street it was quite a supportive Community um I mean I think it also has that also can
Bring some issues too I think um but in the main I think it felt connected enough to cities you know you could go there if you wanted to and I and I mean that as well for just connection to I mean there wasn’t really internet in the same way
Then so connection to to a bit more of like urbanization I guess at that stage too but it ALS Al felt separate as well so you felt you did feel I think part of a community and connected to other people and aware of other people’s lives and
You know opportunity to to to get to know people as well you know I still have friends now that I had when I was in Primary School in Nursery oh yeah and because families get to know each other as well I think that’s a big part of
It um so like going back to your University days like when when this like psychology like came yeah so I actually studied and this was really unusual I studied higher psychology at high school um or when I was in high school sorry but I had to do it as a night class in
College because the high school didn’t offer it so I I couldn’t actually tell you how that came around I think it it and this just goes to show I think the power of people because it must have been my guidance teacher or someone in the school who thought she seems to
Really like people or she seems to be really interested and psychology and I don’t know how this came about but I was certainly offered um to go along to night class in a college the local College Angus College to study psychology and that really kind of
Wetted my appetite and like I said it wasn’t until another I don’t know five six something like that years later that I came back to that and thought Oh yeah I remember really enjoyed that actually and that was um you know kind of sparked the interest in go went going on to do
My undergraduate um so yeah I think it was it was kind of a cumulation of experiences I think um but specifically I mean I think I was wondering I think I noticed psychology as this massive field it really is and in order to apply you know to work as an apply
Psychologist or practitioner psychologist you almost always in fact I don’t think there is any there’s no postgraduate um there’s no applied psychology job that has the um regulatory bodies attached that doesn’t also require some sort of post-graduate study so I thought okay if I want to be
A psychologist of some kind I need to choose which kind of psychologist um I want to be and and like I say I think my experience is of having seen the power of education and and just how um empowering and how education and learning can open up possibilities for
People that became something that I was quite Keen to pursue um I did some work with this was a long time ago some Asylum seekers in Glasgow with the princess trust and I remember and that must have been um maybe 2006 I think just after my undergraduate um and I
Remember them talking about their aspirations and one person in particular wanted to be a doctor um and just being just hearing their conversations and speaking to them about that some of the barriers that they were facing in their school in order to take that forward so there were you know they
They wanted and needed some support with just the practicalities of the written assignments um and actually understanding the systems and all of that kind of thing and that was that was quite a pivotal moment for me I think in relation to the educational aspect because I thought here are a group of
Young people this one young person in particular they have aspirations you know they have a sense of who they want to be and where they want to go but there are these barriers in place that we you know we need to be thinking about
How we can Mo those for them and how we can help this become possible um so that sort of sparked my interest in the education system the psychology of learning I suppose um and what we can do to try and support the overcoming of of those barriers I guess um what kind of
Degree you need like to become that person I mean give us some kind of understanding yeah sorry yeah yeah so to become an educational psychologist you need your undergraduate degree in Psychology and and so with most of these things it’s typically a 21 or above um but they can look at equivalent
Experience um and then a good degree of experience after that so when I did my training it was at least two years of relevant experience in order to get onto the postgraduate um program it’s not um Med by the the time anymore so it’s not two years necessarily but you need a
Quite a wealth of experience in a relevant field to then apply to get onto the Masters in educational psychology and that’s a two-year Masters in Scotland followed by a oneye what’s called a qualification in educational psychology so it’s a bit of a um controversial Topic in Scotland because
It’s actually at doctoral level so at the end of the three years after your four after you’re undergraduate um it’s a three-year postgraduate study at the moment it’s not a doctorate in Scotland but it is elsewhere in the UK so it is in England and it is in um Ireland and
Wales so Scotland’s strange in that way and that it’s this three years but in two steps two years of Masters and then one year of uh qualification which is largely based in practice so like when you when you say like doctor it’s me like professional Doctor Des yes yeah well professional
Training programs yeah okay okay um like I mean what kind of like when you say like practicing experience I mean yeah yeah what kind of settings you’re talking about here yeah so um the role of an educational psychologist is very varied so yeah you’re right to ask because when I say relevant experience
That can mean a whole range of things um so you know educational psychologists we work in schools a lot we work with children and young people and we also have a role in training and research so people on our program just now so I I’m a lecturer on the
Msse educational psychology program in Dundee so people on our program um have a range of experience so some have been teachers in the past some have been support assistants in schools some have not worked in schools but they’ve um been research assistants maybe um maybe they’ve been part of voluntary sector
Working to support children or families um some have been speech and language therapists um some have you know gone on to do a PhD and something and come back and want to um apply that apply some of their learning so it can be very very varied it’s quite a um the application
Process for the MSC it’s very competitive historically it’s always been very competitive um but it the the previous experience of people on the cohort it can be a really wide range like I’m saying which is part of why I think it’s such a rich learning experience because we really encourage
The students to get to know each other to learn from each other you know we’re we’re always saying you’ve got such a a pool and wealth of knowledge and experience in the room please ask each other um you know about your past experiences and what you think of something because
Your perspective and your view will potentially be quite different or unique and we want to be able to learn from all of that so very much encourage people to bring their past experiences with them so like when you say like it’s very competitive I mean does it mean it has
Got better job prospect as well yeah so our and this is a a bit of a unique thing about our program as well so it’s funded um so the Scottish government support the students in addition with KLA the local Authority groups um so the two years is funded and the number of
Places that are on the program there’s a bit of workforce planning behind it so they the um the number of students that we take each year is Loosely based as much as we can without having a crystal ball on how many jobs there might be at the end of
That so it is very much you know um I don’t want to speak out of turn but I’m pretty confident that the that all of our students then go on to get jobs at the end of it things are always changing but there is that link between the end of training
And the number of students that we take on to start with like in terms of like job trajectory like I mean what can be the final destination like how yeah big you can be that’s a great question I mean the first step in would be that you work in an educational psychology
Service in a local Authority um so each local Authority in Scotland has an educational psychology service um and they typically work in teams within those structures that are um promotional posts so you would maybe get a senior educational psychologist or a depute and then a principal educational psychologist but because the role
Um I think obviously I’m quite biased I think educational psychologists and educational psychology has so much to offer um I think we’re in quite a unique position in many ways a privileged position too then some educational psychologists go on to work at um actually at government level and within
Education Scotland perhaps as well um so there’s a real um real opportunity I think to inform policy and guidance um at National level too you can do that as being an educational psychologist within a local Authority but and and a lot of eps do um do that but you can also you
Know the skills I think and the knowledge are really useful in many many Realms some EPS have moved abroad I think that’s it’s interesting because you know we quite often if someone asks what does an EP do you might get different answers from different EPS but in America for example they
They’ve kind of split things out a little bit they’ve got what they might call a school psychologist which is maybe what you’d think about with a psychologist very much usually based maybe in one or two schools and they work more directly with children and young people and then they
Have educational psychologists which to me in my understanding seems to be more the academic um interest so they’re maybe doing research into learning from a more academic position and the school psychologists are those that are in school in schools um in Scotland we have
A bit of a hybrid of this so we um very much try to span the research role and supporting you know new understandings into learning and what supports children and young people in educational contexts um as well as as the direct sort of individual work I
Guess we do do work with case work etc but quite a lot of the time the ep’s role is to work with the school system um or to support the adults around the child and that’s because um we believe that children develop or young people develop through an interaction between
Their environment and their what I would call like internal world internal world and exter internal world and that interaction between those um is what can make a big difference for for children and young people um I’m just like trying to like you know explore more like how does it
Work um yeah please do so like going back to your memory lar so you you finished your undergrad finished your postgrad and then yeah like tell us about your first day in your job what really happened the first day oh gosh I I can remember getting an email from a
Head teacher my first day in the job and um feeling completely overwhelmed because all it was a very complex um it was a head head teacher had had um sent this email to me outlining this incredibly complex feeling case um there were issues with the family in tensions with the family there
Was a child in the center of it all who the school were trying to support I really got the impr that the head teacher was just also feeling really quite overwhelmed and it was essentially an email that said so please help us and I thought my goodness I’ve never
Been in this school before I don’t know this head teacher I don’t know anything about this child um initially the thought was what what am I going to do here but the training that we get it’s great because It prepares us for this kind of thing so I guess it was in part
Observing my own initial thought which was what an earth oh my goodness you know the usual impostor syndrome stuff where you just think they’re asking me you know all of that kind of thing then and this is why I’m really interested in self-regulation and executive functions then it kind of
Switched to know remember your training you know you’ve got work through it in a systematic way um use your training Frameworks and what’s the next or the first thing that you might do next so actually the first thing that I did next was I went to find my supervisor and I
Sort of said this this is what the situation is these are my initial thoughts and my initial thought was actually I want to pick up the phone and speak to the Head teacher rather than any complicated email back and forth where there it seemed like there’s more
Potential for things to get lost in translation um this is my first thought and my supervisor was great and they were just very reassuring and they were almost like my second brain because they said you know yes you’re right you work through your usual Frameworks the way
That you’ve been trained to do and see what comes next they’re not expecting you to go in well they might be expecting you to go in with a magic wand and everything will be magicked and amazing but we know in real life real world contexts that’s very unlikely to
Happen so we just take what’s what needs to happen next what’s the next thing that you need to do and the next thing I needed to do was find out a bit more information and actually get more of an understanding about what the history of things was um what information was already
Available uh how the psychology of the situation was you know how were people feeling about it um and if there was a role for me because there might not have been there may not be um but I think what an educational psychologist or a psychologist can do is create a bit of
Space for people to think things through and to maybe have their thoughts reflected back and just explore a little bit more you know a bit of a non-judgmental space to just think this through okay what might be happening what do we know what do we not know um yeah
Do do you like sit with like people like know both students and the teachers so it’s like kind of know my understanding because I um it’s a bit of personal kind of my connection with the psychologist um I suffer from OCD so OB Compulsive Disorder so I’ve been
Seeing therapist for like almost 20 years so like my understanding about psychology or you know therapist are just always one to one yeah but it it sounds like more it’s a group setting or give us some B of more insight on this yeah yeah so I think that you’re tapping
Into something that’s really um important so I think that there can be a range of ways that different psychologists work and I I often think of this as like just with physiology you know there’s all different kind of specialisms of don’t know like um endocrinology and geriatric care and
Like all these different kind of specialisms there are kind of of similar thing similar things with psychology I think in the world of psychology we’re nowhere near as far down the line as we are in terms of physiology and kind of understanding how the Body Works um and
Knowing as well the body and mind work very you know they’re very integrated but in Psychology there are various different fields within that too so Clinical Psychology where typically there is a bit more individual work although that they’re sort of expanding out a little bit now as well you know forensic psychology
Quite different again sports psychology all these different fields and they’ve all got their ways of working I think and what you know different maybe objectives and client groups in educational psychology I think one of the misconceptions is that we are just child psychologists and that we would work with children on an individual
Basis or young people on an individual basis and while we do do that sometimes it’s had an interesting history that this profession and I think for a time that was the majority of work was sort of individual assessments and individual therapies and interventions over time the nature of the role has
Shifted a little bit so that we are a bit more um involved in working with the adults around the child or young person so especially if there’s maybe a say a a child who’s in early years of primary school for example um usually what we would be Keen to do is understand their
View first of all you know what the child is feeling and and how things are going for them but it’s not always the case that’s a stranger coming in so an educational psychologist who they’ never met before um is the best person to actually support any change that we want
To see for them you know educational psychology has got a very Broad theoretical basis to it but one of the things that are kind of overarching theoretical framework I guess is this idea that a child develops or a young person develops through the in um the inter relationship between
Their external world and their internal world and a lot of the time the external world are the adults around them that they see most often so a class teacher for example certainly their parents um and their peers as well so sometimes the most effective seeming way for an educational psychologist to support a
Situation is to work with the class teacher if it’s an educational context and sometimes even at school policy level because we know that by intervening at that level it will also have an impact on the child and young person and they’re the people they’re going to see most often and that they’re
They’ve got a good relationship with um so you know if if an educational psychologist has say a piece of casework that’s open um in meetings we would tend to be part of a multi- agency or tend to be part of a bigger process than just um ourselves
And the child for example so it might involve the teacher parent potentially as well um maybe some support staff that know the child really well and really what’s important is the child’s voice the child’s view you know how are they feeling about things and and that might
Not be or feel most appropriate they might not want to come to a big meeting about them um and that’s completely fine but we need to find another way of trying to understand how the world feels for them at that point in time and you know um what their thoughts are on what
Might be supportive or not um yeah so it can feel I think that our role as an EP nowadays we recognize that we have knowledge and psychological knowledge and psychological skill that we bring to a situation but we really want to um be partners with other people who know the child or young
Person better typically you know so as much as we H we are expert in certain things we don’t see ourselves as expert in the whole thing because everyone’s bringing expertise about the situation um and our job is to kind of bring them together and see what sense we can make
Of it in order to know the wisest next steps I guess does it involve any kind of one to one to one session like with a student or with a teacher yeah yeah yes it can do yeah it can do yeah and we would typically call that well it would
Typically start with a process we would call consultation so yeah and that um would probably mostly start with maybe School staff because they schools are typically the people or groups who bring a concern to us so so it might begin with a consultation with a head teacher
Or the class teacher to just try and understand the situation a bit further and then there would maybe be a decision about whether or not an educational psychologist would like would they would it be beneficial for them to do more assessment of the situation in the child
And the classroom um and then if you’re going to do a bit of assessment for what purpose so to inform an intervention and it may or may not be that the the psychologist is the best person to do that but um they might have a role in making some recommendations at
What that intervention should look like what it should focus on um and when the point of review should be to see whether or not it’s made a difference um yeah so yeah it’s so certainly yes we we would definitely have a role in meeting with people on an individual basis it it’s
Just that the nature of that work can look quite different depending on what the situation is like I mean in terms of like job situation like for example like dundy city council yeah I mean under it there are like lots of schools so it means lots of students
Lots of teachers yeah so like how many EP are there like educational psychologist there oh in dunde I don’t know I I would say maybe maybe there’s like oh want to say between 10 and 15 okay yeah educational psychologists yeah so there’s not one per school by any means um and that can
Be a big part of a big part of the educational psychologist sort of dilemma challenge is how do I decide which bits of work to take on you know how do I make sure that I’m having most impact knowing that I can’t respond to um well I guess I was going to say
Respond to all of the queries that are coming in but EPS would certainly try to do that it just might mean that um they’re not best place necessarily to be doing the individual work there are lots of supports and um systems in place within schools and in education
Authorities as well that may be better placed to do different pieces so a lot of when an EP sorry I’m saying EP because it’s easier to say than educational psychologist but when an EP is um involved in an early stage of a piece of work they will be asking those
Kind of questions like you know why do we think that a psychologist is needed can we have an initial consultation about that first of all and just trying to unpick it a little bit more um and sometimes that’s enough because through talking about it and trying to think
Through yeah what are the needs here um it might be that the need isn’t necessarily psychological it’s that there’s a need for you know the housing situation to be stable or some other big deal stuff that actually does need to be addressed but that is maybe the thing
That needs to happen now and you know let’s review it again in in a few weeks or something or or at some other point and see now what the situation is or you know maybe we need to be contacting another service and support like I mean I think that that
Triggered a couple of questions for me I mean um like in terms of training like you you know like sometimes people who are practitioner yeah the train for the worst scenario like this is the worst scenario yeah I mean I’m thinking of because uh I’ve got two young daughters
And during the whole coid situation they were in so the my my family my partner Works in NHS so like you know the whole family and I suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder ger phobia so this is like kind of apocalyptic situation for me yeah yeah yeah yeah very intense yeah and I
Can now I can like imagine like how you know people like you know those those practitioners I mean what they have been dealing with I mean is it like serious thing suddenly you know exposed in front of them absolutely yeah I know like what’s your take like I mean for those
Kind of scenario like even if I talk to the teachers in the schools I mean and they always say that you know coid impacted serious stuff on the students mental health and and I saw it I I was the witness for my two daughters and it was the most difficult time for
Our lives as well can you tell us some of the things your your own experience during that time because obviously you are also dealing with those practitioners yeah I think that what we can take for granted I think is that when things are quite stable we’re dealing with the normal es
And flows of life and actually at times they can feel quite overwhelming and then they come back and we think okay this is fine you know we’ve got it it’s okay it’s a stressful day it’ll get better we we’ve kind of trusted that line of thinking when there are exceptional times like Co
Um that becomes a more a critical situation because it’s a bit more chronic it’s a bit more never ending the intensity remains at quite a high level and that can do quite interesting things to for one of a better word I think to our own thinking Styles and our own
Behaviors and it’s almost like a different state kicks in sometimes I think and that can be very very challenging to come back from not completely unexpected at all you know I think through throughout Co what I noticed myself so when when Co first started I remember thinking okay
This is okay this is you know you’ve got these skills you can think through this is going to be challenging I’m going to make extra food I’m going to put it in the freezer in case we get ill you know all these practical things I’m going to
Make sure my family have all these things I’m ahead of the game in terms of getting all the course Co was an incredibly busy time for us work-wise I don’t know what your situation was but just I mean completely overwhelming almost overnight um and required just that
Constant level of doing um so I think you know what I what I realized was while my skills and everything were were helpful at the start while things were still like okay yep I think we’ve got this what I found surprising was that how how how almost like impressively that
Deteriorated so that ability to be flexible in my mind and sort of think okay well this is this is not going to plan but maybe I can try something else I just noticed that those skills in what I would think of as executive functions flexibility impulse control you know
Just brain function working memory they completely deteriorated and and while I would expect that as a more objective standpoint kind of stepping back what I hadn’t noticed or hadn’t expected sorry was how that was a thing regardless of whether I could rationalize it or not so like the physiology the body sort of
Takes over I think um and for me I guess I mean nothing terrible happened to me thankfully except for the fact that I think that period of chronic and ongoing stress probably has taken a bit of a while to recover from and I think that I mean
I’m actually amazed at how quickly we’ve expected everyone to go back to normal um because I think that for many people I mean I don’t want I’m not saying for everyone because everyone had different experiences in lockdown but for many people that was a period of quite chronic and ongoing stress over
Realm um and then all of a sudden we’re sort of expected to go back as if that never happened and actually I wonder and hope that we can recalibrate to what we want to be new normal even though I’m not a big fan of that word and that terminology but you
Know what life is now um but what I think is important as well is to be able to actually now talk about about what happened then how that felt for people what was very challenging exactly the kind of things that you’re talking about you know the kinds of things where it feels like
Actually I regret that I I wish that hadn’t happened um but also it’s okay that it did you know and if it feels like it wasn’t okay that it did okay so how might I repair that or what kind of things might I do to to restore anything that I feel like maybe
Um I I would have liked to have done that differently you know what opportunities exist now so that we don’t just park it to on side if it feels like there are things that we would want to still explore within that or things that we feel that
Happened through that time that need a bit more a time in our head or through conversation or or whatever that might be um because I think that it it it wasn’t for me it wasn’t like what W this traumatic thing has happened on this one
Day it was like an ongoing time of high pressure high responsibility anxiety um and in the moment it kind of feels like okay I think this is okay I think this is okay but knowing and noticing different Behavior changes that aren’t normal for me beforehand and
Thinking okay maybe this is having a bit of an impact that I hadn’t expected and then coming out the other end of it um which again is maybe unhelpful terminology I think it’s more like moving into the just time passing and sort of just aware of even things like
Um people’s values changing you know I’d love to speak to people about what do you value now that you maybe didn’t beforehand and you know there will be many people who are doing research into this um and you know how do you feel about yourself as a citizen
And you know or as a as a student or as a learner what’s important to you now and everything you know yeah I think think other things are happening in the world as well um you know how we process those things and how we give space to them and uh
Yeah all of that kind of thing I sort of wonder about all of that I think um I don’t think that really answered your question no no because I mean I I still struggle like what really happened you know yeah but I mean couple of things like my my own experience for example
Um it’s quite traumatic dayto day you know it’s not like you know you are facing some serious struggle it it it’s like you you can also die yes that’s the like kind of yes and people are dying around you as well yeah I know yeah and
And you relatives as well yeah it’s like continuous that kind of process yes yeah and what you are saying is like chronic isn’t it it’s you don’t know like when this will finish yeah at one point it’s like two years like one and a half years
That kind of thing yeah um but what I noticed like you know though our life was extremely difficult you know even day-to-day things I mean I mean obviously teaching was we doing online teaching lots of you know new things were coming we trained ourselves yeah of frustration there but also I think that
One thing I really remember is like people became more Kinder more compassionate about those things and we became kinder to our colleagues as well normally we are not we are always in a fight with each other I know what you mean though that it can feel quite separate but yeah I
Saw that as well and and like I was doing like podcast every week and I was bringing my colleagues there and then you know everyone is telling Amazing Stories um I mean so that that’s the like you know kind of try to find out you know like I mean how the homo sapiens
Actually you know their brain works I mean and and also the adaptability as well how we can quickly you know like make ourselves yeah we can we can pass it through yeah um kind of remember like no I think one of the books I read that our earliest memories
Like human history is like we used to actually sleep on the tree yeah yeah now we sleep on the bed oh and oh gosh I find this topic of conversation fascinating and I’m really interested in how differently we live now compared to how we did as a species
For I think it’s like 99 90 or 99% of the time human have been on this planet we were hunter gatherers yeah and just a completely different way of living compared to now where we that staring at screens and you know so I think some of
The things that we see make sense if we think about it through that lens like our bodies will not have evolved at the same rate that our lifestyle has changed so some of the you know the ways that we know so you know and hunter gatherers would always be in groups you
Know collaborating I think that brought some negative things as well you know people were ostracized and not included in that kind of thing too um an anthropologist would know more about these things but um you know when we think now you know we work much more individually we’re less connected to
People or less connected feeling to people anyway um you know that idea of what’s your role in a team and you know we’re working together we’re collaborating we need to work a little bit harder on that nowadays because it’s not immediately apparent who’s going to do the the Gathering and who’s going to
Do the other bits who’s going to be getting the the home sort of watertight and secure that kind of thing um and just many many other things that we used to do I assume that we now don’t um and the impact that the contradiction I guess or the conflict that would
Probably cause within our Psychology and Physiology because those things are now very different very very quickly over you know over a quick period of time and I I think I noticed that as well through lockdown and just um I think it it really seem to bring
Out the human in people a little bit more you know it was almost like while I’m saying I noticed for me anyway like the executive functions the sort of ability to problem solve and um be strategic about things and all that kind of plan and all those kind of skills I
Noticed myself they deteriorated what I also noticed was more like fundamental just being much more open to people’s experiences and really connecting with other people and feeling pain and feeling you know um yeah people’s stories and just seeing other people people as other people as much as we all think that we
Do that on a daily basis I think the whole context of coid and the fear and the sense of perspective I think that that offered also stripped us back a little bit and just for me anyway um really put a bit of a spotlight on what’s important and just the being you
Know just the being of being human and that brings with it a bit of vulnerability and I think when we’re vulnerable then we actually can forge stronger relationships sometimes um because we’re kind of saying you know this is us you know we are we’re pretty um yeah we’re pretty open to this thing
That’s coming along and um could potentially do quite a lot of damage here um so I think it kind of exposed a bit of that and and ultimately we could probably all do with being a little bit more vulnerable and being a little bit more open and
Um yeah just human I guess in that too that’s that’s a that’s a real um benefit I think if we can hold on to those things from Co and lockdown it yeah I think it probably encouraged us all to see where our flaws are and and you know nothing to do but
Accept those and then think about okay how do I want to use that information that I have about myself to you know do whatever it is that I think would be helpful I’m I’m kind of hour of time because this is such a you know important thing so because my plan is to
I’ll bring you back you know to talk oh yeah things more um like more lighter stuff like I mean um tell us about the things you enjoy in this kind of field I mean yeah um I um I’m just generally fascinated by people and what bit of a
Informal way to say it about basically what goes on between the ears you know what goes on in our minds and in our brains and how that influences decisions we make and the our behaviors um I tend to think about things like a kind of bioc Psychosocial sort of model um
So knowing that each influences the other so the kind of biobit meaning you know what are we maybe genetically predisposed to and actually there’s probably a fair amount of our genetic predisposition that sets us up in a certain way from we’re a baby um but also the epigenetic stuff so that’s you
Know when maybe certain genetic predispositions they either present themselves or they might not depending on your environment you know and what’s around you the external world so I’m very interested in that and and actually my PhD stuff started by me wondering what can we learn about the developing brain from like emerging
Neuroscience we know a bit about it already but that technology and that um ability to actually look at brains and track them over time you know we’re getting a bit more sophisticated in that way and is there anything that’s coming through from that that is helpful
Knowing that it’s still very much at an early stage and I think that’s the big caveat that we see images of brains and we see fancy MRI scans and we think oh this must be the truth but actually we really need to be critical about that
Because we’re at an we’re at a pretty early stage and to jump from seeing something on a brain scan thinking oh this is what we need to do in a classroom then as a pretty risky jump I think there’s a few more steps to go through um before we’re quite at that
Stage or at least we need to we need to be cautious around it um so I’m I’m really interested in that because I think that in educational psychology I think we’re really well placed to almost be like Brokers of that information sort of bring the knowledge and and research we’re maybe aware of
Around psychology and kind of cognitive models and then integrating that in some way with okay what are we learning about the brain as well and and how that interacts with the environment and what might um be useful in that way um and then also you know hugely the social so
I’m I’m going like this because I’m thinking of my bioc psychosocial but the um the psych so we go to the psychology as well the the psycho B just kind of things like what what do we tell ourselves you know that quote and I think it was originally from probably some sort of
Cognitive behavioral therapies but what what are you telling yourself you know and I ask myself that on a regular basis at least once a day catch that thought is it that oh well you know that’ll never work or this always happens or oh I knew it you I’m a ter wor whatever it
Might be catch it is it true you know what else might be true it won’t be the whole picture and just being curious about our own thoughts and kind of patterns of behavior and where does that come from and and having that sort of um ability to just track and monitor what’s happening
Between the ears and that the stories that we’re telling ourselves and asking where is that coming from um and is that helpful to me or is it holding me back and that is where I think you know um therapies can be really useful and seeing a therapist can can really be
Quite useful in that because it’s quite difficult to do that by ourselves sometimes especially if we’ve been in a state of chronic stress or there’s something else and it that might be the bio bit that is just sort of overriding our ability to do that sometimes um so
To get some help with that can be quite useful sometimes um and and then the social bit I think that you know we have to acknowledge that it’s not an even playing field and things that contribute to chronic stress you know we’re the state of the world at the moment you know that
Is something that we might not feel directly connected to but it’s there in our minds you know and we’re thinking about just aware of of it all and wondering and I think the connecting the cycle and the the cycle B I suppose is is really thinking about what can I do
You know instead of it being this massive cloud of anxiety or sadness or something um narrowing it down circle of influence we would talk about you know is there something I can do what can I do you know what’s within my area of expertise or knowledge or gift in some other way
What might I be able to do that might just with the intention of making a bit of difference if it can’t be the whole world of difference is there a bit of difference that I can make um in in some way and just breaking it down a little
Bit um and then obviously you know like I think we’re you know mentioning chronic stress again a lot of a lot of people are living in chronic stress you know really challenging living conditions um you know we talk about support networks that’s a wonderful thing it can also be
You know the people around us or the groups around us the narratives around us the Norms around us they can be really helpful and sometimes they can also not be and that’s the bit about connecting the cycle bit you know what’s going on in here how aware can we be of
The role that that is playing for us and and and again just thinking through what is possible possible um and this is all you know recognizing that and I I just think that the world can be a very confusing Place sometimes there’s lots of conflicting narratives there’s lots
Of conflicting messages you know you just work hard and you’ll get through it you know no sometimes people are are very you know they’ve been working hard they’ve been working very hard and they’re trying their best but there’s just a systems barrier in place there’s something there that’s making it feel
Impossible to get through and we need to work at that level then you know we need to maybe this is where the the political side of things comes in I guess you know how can we address some of these social changes that we think would be helpful
And and how do we do that as well you know I think that it’s quite important that it’s not you know experts coming in and doing something but it’s sort of you know it’s a process um that takes time I guess too but so I suppose it’s sort of the bigger macro
Things holding them in mind and being driven by whatever you want to be driven by and usually that comes by you know having a sense of what your values are and where you want to make a difference that kind of thing knowing yourself you know what what your own limits and
Boundaries are that kind of thing and then sort of breaking it down like what might be the next thing or the you know the what might be something I can do um and knowing that it’s it’ll it you know we shouldn’t expect things to set it up and and I’ll
Do this thing and it’ll it’ll be great it’ll work and that kind of thing we have to expect the ABS and flows as well I think you know it’s kind of always been that way I think that you know as humans we’re we we have always dealt with big
Emotions um and then had to sort of work through well actually what’s helpful what’s not helpful um and at times that can feel more chronic and at times that can just be the E and flow of a day um but yeah there are some some really big
Deal things happening um at the moment and I think that that yeah it’s I guess it’s the same process I would be I would be thinking of I mean like just one last point I want to really bring it um because I mean yesterday was quite
Um quite a day for me I mean obviously know the the situation in Palestine Israel was like really kind of you know exploded totally and since I teach these things my students are involved in these so it’s quite a bit of you know some kind of soul searching that what we can
Do and cannot do yeah that’s that’s one thing it’s like you know over consuming it’s like almost consumed my life yeah and then my daughter the youngest daughter came to me and also the big daughter as well and then came to me and said that Matthew Perry died
Um I mean it’s like two kind of traumas because they have got lesser understanding about the political situation but suddenly I I saw that you know they’re seriously harked by this news because this is the man they really you know his his creativity his acting his memories is is so so much good
Things brought to them I mean and yeah then suddenly I kind of Switched Off from that you know the bigger picture and try to focus on like Matthew Perry and try to know celebrate his life my daughter and and like more or less whole day we were talking about mat Perry yeah
Um I mean I don’t know like I mean no I think I you are a like psychologist but kind of no it it kind of brings some kind of calmness yeah yeah I think that’s wonderful that you sat with your daughters and and explored that with
Them and it sounds like you tried to understand what it meant for them and really I think that is a lot of the job of the adults around children and young people and for young people as well to be able to bring that I think that is
What development is is about in many ways you know it’s sort of helping children and young people to actually even notice in the first place what’s causing them upset or difficulty um because that’s something in itself actually to even acknowledge it you know sometimes we feel something we don’t
Know why but for them to to notice actually that’s kind of upset me a little bit or you know that that meant something to me and then to have someone listen to that and not say you know oh don’t be ridiculous you know but actually listen to it and and hear it
From you know what is it they’re experiencing and and what did he mean to them and to try and understand I think that’s really a lovely thing and will no doubt be you know supporting that relationship um and you’re right it and also I think when we can like
Really get into and connect with someone else’s emotions basically and feelings in a time it is immediately like it can bring more emotion to us as well but it is immediately all consuming I think because we’re in that moment you know and you’re really forging a connection with someone and
You’re you’re you’re not yourself worrying about the bigger picture and everything else that’s going on to the into the world you’re now part of two you know you’re really listening to each other and you’re understanding someone else’s experience um and I think that’s and as easy and simple as you just made that
Sound it’s not an easy or simple thing to do a lot of the time because we are human as well and we’ve got lots of things running around in our brain and when I was talking earlier about self-regulation I think that that role that an adult can play or and a young
Person you know children with each other just being a human I guess can play is actually it’s hard to sometimes switch off the busyness that’s going on in our minds to really listen to someone else and and really want to understand their perspective but that is hugely um my
Goodness that is just worth its Wai and goal to be able to do that and just meaningfully connect with someone else and and I know that because you know feel it myself but also from working in schools with different teachers and everything you know schools are busy
Places it’s a pretty stressed setup I think in general at the moment um and and also when and teachers and staff try and do it all the time to just put that almost to the side and just connect with a child or young person just listen
To them just observe like what do you see what does it seem as important to them and help them try and understand what that means and explore it it’s kind of what we need as adults as well isn’t it it’s sort of sometimes we just want
To be heard we just want to someone to say I hear that and that sounds really difficult and I’m sorry it’s happened tell me more you know those kinds of things um and then it’s lovely as well if you ever feel like you can get to a stage of
Reciprocating you know actually I’m really glad we had this conver ation there’s been quite a lot on my mind as well you know and and that depends on the kind of relationship and that kind of thing but um I think that sounds like a lovely thing you were able to
Do because like I mean what like what I found like out of this whole this crisis situation and like Matthew Bar’s dead I mean I try to you know watch some of the older clips and like one of the things I found that there was actually no TV
Interview with him and I saw like the the people are quite harsh on his life know his addiction and those things okay yeah and and that really kind of worries me like why we we are so unkind to people you know and then people are judging him
That oh this is your fault you know why you’re not in control of your life yeah and he tries to explain that you know I cannot control some of those things my body works different way yeah and and I saw a man was you know struggling to find kindness I mean and
And I think that the way our society you know is going through now is is all about you know lots of judgment lots of you know unkindness and that that that worries me so I try to bring lots of compassion lots of kindness in in life but it’s difficult isn’t it it’s so
Difficult and I think that you’re I think you’re completely right and and again this is going back to I I just feel like there’s so many contradictory me messages everywhere you know there’s like t-shirts with be kind on it and this like hashtag beind and
Then at the same time we see on TV or you know in political spaces kindness not being modeled at all you know and I think a big part of our role in society is to actually like have the convers ations about it you know and what does
Kindness mean to you and what would it look like you know does that feel like it was kind or or or not kind you know and is there ever a time where it feels okay to to not be kind or you know what would that look like and and to just
Actually have those conversations because if we don’t if we don’t learn about what these things mean to us we’ll just get carried along in the wave you know our Behavior actually is shaped quite a lot by just whatever feels automatic and culture and Society really drives that without us knowing sometimes
So we need to be quite this is the cycle bit we need to sort of be thinking what am I seeing here and how does that resonate with me and yeah actually does that fit with my values or not why not if not you know it’s because
It didn’t feel very kind they it felt like they were a bit disrespected there or you know in exploring some of these things that we notice that don’t sit okay with us um or if we observe it elsewhere then then wondering how we might be able to challenge that in a
Respectful way um you know those kinds of things I think you’re right I think that it’s very easy to get caught up in the the hustle and bustle I guess is a bit of a cliche but the it it feels like a very hostile environment sometimes that we live in at
The moment you know and I don’t know if that’s because people can be quick with the remarks and they’re very public very quickly and then it something explodes online and then it’s all sort of unraveled very quickly I expect that is something to do with it um which I think
Makes it even more important that we have the conversations about how we want to engage in the world and how we want to engage with people you know what we want to be known for and what we want to uphold um part of that I think from for
Me and for most people is going to be self-compassion too because we’re not going to get it right all of the time we’re going to let ourselves down sometimes um often maybe but what’s important what’s important is that we can reflect on it and think okay that
Wasn’t great what do I want to do next time or what why did that happen I was tired and I was hungry sometimes it’s as simple as that or I was completely overwhelmed by what is happening yesterday so what might I want to do now like
Now to just catch that you know am I going to spend 10 minutes just sitting free writing just let it out like what is it that’s on my mind what shape can I give to this or so I just want to sit with whatever I’m feeling just
Acknowledge it and give yourself a pat on the back for the efforts that you are making you know um and just come back to yourself I I I think it it’s worth us all developing a bit of a doing a bit of a personal audit who am I what triggers
Me what doesn’t trigger me you know what do I stand for um and then a bit of a plan around okay when things are challenging what helps me um both on a daily basis and also in a preventative long-term chronic stress avoidance basis you know what what helps me to have
Built into my own systems in those you know to try and help give me the best shot of of of doing and behaving in the way that I want to thank you Gilan