The Football Studies Channel is back with another exciting episode exploring football’s role in fascist regimes.
Have you ever wondered how football and politics are intertwined? Our special guest, Chris Lee, author of “The Defiant: A History of Football Against Fascism,” shares how fascist regimes exploited football for their political agendas while uncovering astonishing acts of resistance worldwide.
Together with Chris Lee, our special commentator, Alex Alexandrou, ponders whether there are parallels between the strategies employed by traditional fascist regimes and those by contemporary ‘non-democratic regimes’ like Saudi Arabia and Qatar in their exploitation of football.
This episode is a thought-provoking journey into the intertwined worlds of football and politics. Don’t miss out!
Subscribe to Football Studies, hit the notification bell, and join us for Episode 4 featuring Chris Lee, author of “The Defiant: A History of Football Against Fascism.”
Make sure to follow Chris Lee and the Football Network at Twitter/X:
@outsidewrite
@CMRLee
@footballandwar
#FootballStudies #PoliticsInFootball #FascismInFootball #ChrisLeeInterview
He well good morning and good afternoon for folks joining us uh from the UK and Europe and maybe good night for people from uh the other part of the world uh to today is a special episode for football studies uh we’re gonna have the pleasure
To host Chris Lee Chris Lee is um travel uh uh was a travel specialist sports specialist as well he he’s a writer of football uh in the context the context of History he as he he defines himself he’s a curious fans football travel um he loves history and he also runs a
Cultural blog and podcast named outside brigh he’s the author of origin stories and the last book that we’re going to probably talk a lot about today um which talks about the history of football against fascism uh joining us as uh as well from beautiful city of over Hampton uh right
Alex correct me if I’m wrong uh it’s Alex Alex Andrew the director of football and War network uh he’s our special commentator today so chis and Alex thanks uh for joining me today again it’s a pleasure and I’m very very looking forward to our conversations Alex I’ll give you the
Word first to you and then I’m gonna jump give the word to Chris uh so you can introduce yourself a little bit and uh and then jump into questions thank you Filipe um as as some colleagues may already know I am the uh co-founder and chair of the football and War
Network which brings together um historians both Club historians academic historians and uh members of the public who are studying their family history who have an interest in all aspects of football and War be it that they’re looking into their family histories and the linkages with the Armed Forces or
That they are looking at specific social or political aspects related to to football and War the football and War network has a very active Twitter account with over 3,000 followers and um we have a base at the University of wver Hampton where we have a platform on the
University’s uh website and we run a very active Blog blog article series which Chris uh has contributed to as well and we have well over 120 blog articles on all aspects of football and War and uh we are delighted to be part of this uh new series uh for the
Football and studies um YouTube channel and I’m looking forward to today’s uh discussion thanks Alex Chris welcome yep no thank you for having me on so my name is Chris Le by day I am a digital marketer really working you know writing about things like software as a service
But um kind of on the side I found I was traveling a lot with work and I started up um you know taking in matches at Amsterdam and and you know Madrid and places like this that I was visiting and um uh and I just decided to Chronicle it
In a in a blog really started as a Blog and some social around it and then added to podcast and explore some some deeper themes around football because there’s lots of people blogging about um football Etc um but what I wanteded to find a niche more you know to tapped
Into that sort of ground hopping Community uh it went deeper than that we’re talking about football and Society a lot more and that s spoke a lot to the University dissertation that I did way back in the late 90s when I was at University in Madrid and also in the UK
Um and that was around football and Regional identity in Spain sorry Regional identity in Spain has expressed through football so it’s a case study of of of FC Barcelona Real Madrid as you could imagine and that was possibly at that point in the late 90s there was
Only really one book in English uh around football and politics that was Simon Cooper’s football against the enemy which I’m sure a lot of you are familiar with um and since then there’s been a huge kind of body of work which has been really great because it’s actually having a look at what
Football’s role in society has been and as you mentioned um you know the last couple years I’ve had two books out uh 2021 I got um origin Stories the Pioneers who took football to the world which is basically country by country exploration of how the game got started
In each country so rough chronological order so we go Eng Scotland Wales Ireland you know France Etc um and obviously there’s a chapter on Brazil in there and the United States I’d like to say um because very important to the early game which people often underestimate um but also my second
Follow-up book which was very much a lockdown project I didn’t get the chance to sort do any field work for that because it was you know because it was coid times but that was the um the defiant history of football against fascism which kind of because I looked
At the um you know the agenda and I thought that it was actually going to be the inary of melini’s March on Rome in in October um which happened in October 192 uh2 and I thought gosh if I can get this out for the anniversary the centor
Of that um that’ be really topical and of course this coincided with the same the rise of the far right again in Italy and various other places in Europe so I thought it’s quite topical um and so yeah we’re going to cover some of the topics and the themes it covers in that
Book as we go through today I’m sure yeah thanks Chris uh definitely going to cover not just melini’s regim but I’m I’m guess we’re going to jump into Franco as well Salazar those shoes were also part of my dissertation so I’m very very curious um to to see what you bring
Uh today uh what what your perspectives so uh we’re going to jump into the questions so we have prepared five questions but we can expand um Bas on on the interactions and the comments that we’re going to definitely generate so the first question that I have uh
Today is associated with the idea of football never been been free of politics right that many many people still believe in that so for those that still hesitate to acknowledge the this inherent connection between football and politics it it seems important to consider the 20th century exploitation
Of football by fascist regimes that B Commerce so can you with wello and ler discus examples share the different ways uh fascist regimes have used football for their political aims and explain why they have decided to approach football and perhaps not other sports no fair
Enough yeah that’s um I think to do that we’ll just have to sort of immediately address the elephant in the room which is of course that football and politics do mix all sports and politics do mix and anyone who thinks otherwise is either I don’t know um probably should
Read more history books um but just look at the recent Shenanigans at the Spanish Football Association for example um or uh you can uh today the day that we’re recording is the 50th anniversary of the um coup in Chile on by the Chilean military AET pin as some people know him
Overthrowing zende and that was incredibly bici sized from the off the with the football element of that with the USSR refusing to play in the stadio National which is where the uh had been a Detention Center therefore um you know after the pinet coup and that was um you
Know this is just goes to show these little reminders all the time the footballs or Sports involvement in you know touching on on EX either extreme politics such as a as a a coup and a takeover or or something that’s more societal like this what’s happening in
The Spanish fa um but if we go back right to the beginning of football there always been political before I come and T touch touch on the fascist element because that doesn’t arrive till the 1920s and 30s um football starts in you know Association code football as we’re
Talking about right here which is properly codified by the English FA Football Association in 1863 it’s built on the school uh rules of various places like Harrow Eaton Cambridge University Charter House the and even some private clubs like Sheffield FC which was involved is the world’s oldest Club so
These all kind of came together to create kind of this rule book and at that point it was very much the gentleman’s game it like like upper class people because only they had t to play um you know to have a recreation time the workers the plebs were too busy
Down mines and you know up chimneys and things like that you get the factory acts a various act in the 19 the 1870s which gives people in England and Britain i s Great Britain I should say at that point um kind of Saturday afternoon off and suddenly you know it
Goes from being something that gentlemen are playing to something that people are actually watching as well so you see this societal change you see it’s like football becomes a class issue in Britain where you know the working class wants to start playing it factory set up
Teams um people are quite happy for that to happen because it keeps them kind of out of pubs and you know keeps them healthy and distracted so um so it becomes this working you know you see this imp pivotal decade of the 1870s and 1880s where the upper classes that that
Traditionally run English football and certainly played it at this point um and they get overtaken so talking about the older iians winning the FA Cup regly or the military scene called The Royal engineers and people like that they um or Wanderers which was a gentleman’s club that played around the place you
Can imagine by the name Wanderers um in 1883 Blackbird Olympic becomes the first workingclass Club to win it the first Northern Club Northern England of being you know very industrialized um and that’s the sort of last time that the upper classes win that you know and then professionalism comes in a few years
Later and that completely embeds as a working-class sport that actually gives opportunities to working-class men at this point point and women later to earn money through playing sport um however as the game as while this is happening here in the in UK I’m talking about in particular um the game is also being
Exported abroad and it has a similar route everywhere else it starts potentially usually with British ex communities or with upper class people from those countries they take that game back with them and it still becomes an upper class kind of sport in those places but then kind of filters into the
Working class we see these slow takeovers as we had seen in England um I think where the first time we see football become politically internationally is over in Ireland uh and I mentioned this because there’s a big discussion about identity and colonialism around British sports like football like rugby like hockey like
Cricket um against um uh local sports such as um Gaelic football and hurling and you see the creation of the Gaelic Athletic Association 1884 which um uh is around protecting Irish Sports and there was a huge um kind of like discussion within Ireland um and even the the ga uh
The G gay Athletic Association banned players from not just playing but also watching these British sports these Garrison games as they called them because obviously Ireland was under British occupation at this point in the late 19 century and that went up till 19 1971 that ban so it went quite way into
You know 50 years after um the uh you know the free Irish free state or what is now the Republic of Ireland to become independent so it’s it’s really fascinating to see that that’s where I think personally it begins I think also you see um football become part of the
National awaking and identity in place of Argentina and Uruguay um in in Egypt um and you know after World War I and also even turkey so turkey was occupied by the British and French forces after the fall of the Ottomans and um because they sided with um Germany in that
Access in in World War I um and as the sort of British and French were leaving they were playing these various football matches against what was now you know at a tur turkey and um uh fenb which is one of their most prominent three clubs as
You know is uh was one of the key players in in this and they they they beat a a British regiment you know strong British regiment team that had a one of like former Chelsea player in their ranks um and um you know on their way out so that’s a final match it’s
Really interesting how football identity and politics certainly in a sort of you know masculine context anyway at this point really um exists within the Britain at the same time just after World War I um the women’s game is taking off to the point where it’s scaring the fa enough
To ban it so um you know because they’re getting crowds of 50,000 plus and the men are sort of like back from the war now and all that sort of thing so this takes us up to the 1920s I guess where musolini does his march on Ray in
1922 um Italy at this point is not good at football let’s make that really clear it’s a disperate country um and if we think about um the state of it it’s only been unified for like 60 years and one of the architects of of the the resor as
It’s known the the sort of unification of of Italy which previously in this 18661 previously it been lots of disparate States they put this this thing together um his name was masimore danelo and he said we’ve made Italy now we make Italians and sort of what melini
Does he sort of takes that forward and he uses football as one of his tools to to bring it together so sport becomes this like propaganda tool both domestically and internationally where um domestically they have this thing called the um the um Charter of Vel which is you know the town where they
Met and got together to sort of say this is what our blueprint is for the future of Italian football they um form various new clubs so Roma for example should roll my shirt right behind you um that was a former formation of three or an amalgam I say of three clubs they wanted
A really strong Roman club um however uh one of the clubs that resisted that uh that move was SS IO which is obviously like independent of of of um of Roma and they’ve got one of the biggest rivalries now Cross City rivals in the world however that wasn’t a sort of benevolent
Anti-fascist move and it was the the guy that was running it just um you know I think he was quite well connected and said no I don’t I’d rather keep my my club independent thank you so um also Fiorentina which is my team in Italy they were formed by an amalgam of two
Teams in Florence because they wanted a strong Florentine team as well he creates um C which is uh as you know is the sort of Unified League uh he reboots the copper Italia so there’s this one national competition uh League competition there a national cup competition um and you see this sort of
Like filter through domestically to this sense of creating Italians now going to the 1930s and the World Cups do exist okay so previously the best the premium World Tournament had been the Olympic competition which had been amature which is why the British teams which had hither to before the 1920s won pretty
Much all the gold medals they don’t or they do enter but then they stop entering um in these or take you know don’t have the best players available to them um in the 20s and 30s and you see other amateur sides come up like Uruguay wins back-to-back Golds so they get the
Right to hold 1930 World Cup um which Italy doesn’t go to um Italy wins the right to host the 1934 World Cup by which time melini is um has realized the power of this sport it’s grown in popularity domestically and internationally I think we pretty much
Say by the 1930 World Cup is globally the world’s leading sport it’s not necessarily the most popular even in Italy it shares the front page with the Judo Italia you know the um cycling uh as well around this sort of time so um they host it and win it uh obviously as
Everyone knows they win the 1936 gold at the am at the um the amate side does at the Berlin Olympics they um win the 1938 World Cup in France and this is where we first time we see a lot of opposition to um to um to to the regime because it’s
Like you know by then ital involved in the Spanish Civil War they Italian aircraft are bombing civilians uh in Spain um the uh there’s lots of exp Patriots in France where it’s held and so we see a lot of opposition to it especially Mar which is obviously not a
Million miles from the the Italian border and so this is where we sort of see the uh the first sort of kind of um anti-fascist activity but what I would say also about that is the one of the reasons that they made Italy so strong
Was they yes they band a lot on foreign players but at the same time they um they kind of allowed players of Italian descent or Ori or patriti as they also known people like Luis Monty who played for Argentina 1930 World Cup final uh there were a few others like Rando ory
Um and um atillo deania there who was also in the argentinan squad if you’ve got you can prove your links back to Italy and you’re a good enough player you can come and play for Italy so they kind of created they realized that they were you know they could bypass their
Own laws on who and who wasn’t an Italian and um and strengthen the national side that way so um yeah it was quite clearly in overtly part of their um kind of the agenda of the first fascist regime the melini regime at this point now Germany wants to copy this um
Adolf Hitler is like you know once it sees all this sporting success they’d already been awarded the 19th the right to host the 36 Olympics before he came to power in 33 so um you know there it’s you know they sort of took it took that
And run with it as a sort of like propaganda tool however um especially after the anus which is the forced um unification of Germany and Austria by the Nazis in 1938 Austria had a very good team although it had the the vunda team although what was left of it they
Peaked by then uh semi-finalist in 1934 um they a lot of their best players refused to play for the unified team people like mat cindel who was their great star at that point and um they didn’t play very well as a team so when Germany Germany uh which included
Austrian team went to the 1938 World Cup they um they got knocked out pretty early by um Switzerland in a replay and um so they it was a you know it failed from that point of view Hitler only went to one football match and that was Germany getting knocked out of um his
Own Olympics by Norway 2-0 and he left early having seen the second goal so um he wasn’t really interested in it at all now if we go to sort of Spain which is sort the next fascist regime Franco he really was a football fan this is the
Difference and I’m sure we’re going to cover him in more depth uh as we go to this because melini didn’t go to for example allegedly didn’t go to the um the 1934 World Cup winning Afterparty um I said hit only went to one match but
Franco was a regular right he went he he he made sure that football was part of his State the sport was part of the state by he had a party called the fan and he put a fanista one of his sort of members on every Club board so basically
There was a like fascist presence all the way through La Liga um he names the cup after himself I’ve often said that you can tell the history of the 20th century history of Spain through the name of its cup cup competition so if we know it now as the COA Del Ray right
It’s the Spanish FA Cup effectively um it started as the COA car naon in 1902 so the coronation cup the coronation of Alonso the 13th he’s the guy who bestows all the Royal titles people like Real Madrid real taga um real sad they all come from that Royal Decree effecting
The Alonso 13th big fan of football it becomes a coule Del re uh and then once the second Spanish rep Republic takes over in 1931 the the the monarchy flees the country and for a while it’s coopa de Republic um the presidency de the Republic so the cup of the president
Of the Republic’s cup very longwinded name that and then also during the Civil War BEC the cop ofano libbre or the the cup of free Spain which is not recognized by the RF the Spanish fa at the moment so um Levante won that Levante being the second team of
Valencia um very interesting story behind that which I cover in my book then Franco comes along it becomes the ciso until the 70s so while he’s in charge uh so he’s the her Alis with a very big General and then uh he dies King Juan Carlos comes back to the
Throne democracy is restored it’s like goil Ray again but during that time it’s named after him he does use the national side um for example when they beat England in 1950 to sort of make a barb about um you know the World Cup in 1950 about you know J broter and
Things like that um he then refuses to allow the team to play communist USSR in the 1960 European Championship however he allows them to play in the 1964 one when they beat USSR and then in the final to win their first piece of you know major silverware European
Championship and um that’s a big thing for them because he then ties that into his own myth about like how defeated communism and all that sort of thing so um that was how Franco used it and I know we’re going to cover in more depth with his alleged relationship with Real
Madrid later on I think we need to really look at closely at the Nuance behind those relationships I’m sure you’ve got phip some things to say about that um then just finally on that just before we look at um you know within Europe European sphere there’s um
Salasar in Portugal who’s kind of I guess one of the Forgotten dictators um because I Portugal was very peripheral to European Affairs at that point um and they don’t really get good at football let’s face it till the 60s with the coming of el sebu Sila fero and maruna
Both of which came from the um what was Portugal African colonies at the time um and they they helped form the Crux of not only the Portuguese national side but the Benfica side they become European Champions twice and um at this point you start seeing Portugal talk
About three the three FS Fu which is their folk music Fatima which is obviously their pilgrimage site um and then football so football becomes part of the sort of um promotion system of Portugal as a as a as a place as a source of national
Pride and I think we’re going to come to later how um football plays a part in the downfall of the Salasar regime but just the other final element I’ve covered which I think Philipe you’re probably closest to is the Latin American dictatorship so obviously Brazil is under dictatorship from 64 to
The 80s uh Argentina S8 is the obvious one the most famous um Uruguay famously in 1980 tries to um um re replicate the success of Argentina 78 by running the mundialito which is the World Cup uh which features all the world previous World Cup winners apart from England who
Refused to go you know true to form previous tournaments um and Netherlands going and sted as the runners up of the previous two World Cups um yes uguay kind of wins their own Small World Cup actually if anything it shines a light on the dictatorship again helps and
Speed their decline so um it’s it’s a fascinating topic um and I I think we just have to remember that football has been part of uh politics all the way right from the beginning and guess it very much depends on your agenda of who who you are as a leading political
Parties and what role sport plays you know in in trying to get your your objective across really yeah no it’s fascinating how how they are very connected when I listen to you remember that the the very very popular Spanish football national team blue blue jersey right the they won in
2010 right I was created by the Francos regime that they changed the color to blue because of the falles uh color right that they they were blue there some real pettiness around the color red I just want to point this out before we get to the next question while you were
Talking about it they wore blue in Spain after Civil War during the 40s basically um and when they played Portugal kind of somewhere in the late 30s um in an unofficial friendly in vgo Spain they both Portugal playing clar as well as you know but they refused to wear red
Because so close to the communist sort of color and they wore white and Spain wore blue and even in osasuna for example which you know in Pamplona they were burning osasuna shirts because they were red and it’s just like it gets incredibly Petty around the color red they asked Benfica to change their
Nickname from being um the Reds to the Scarlets vermos uh to inad or something like that I can’t remember now but it’s like something yeah um so yeah it gets to that level of pettiness around the color red fascinating yeah exactly Alex any initial comments
Yes uh a couple just wanted to pick up on a couple of points that uh uh Chris highlighted like to go back to the Italian fascist regime I think uh to a large degree I see that as a template uh for how to utilize football for political means the
Propaganda uh usage of football by uh the fascist regime not at at not only at National and international level but at local level as well um a good example Chris mentioned a couple of teams there another team that was significant for the fascist regime was bologna they won
Siera a number of times but also in between the two World Cup successes bologna won a European uh competition in Paris and again the the propaganda value uh beyond the borders of Italy uh was quite significant and it’s the manner in which football was utilized by the fascist
Regime and how as as Franco did in Spain how they implanted fascist officials within football clubs around Italy again once once you embed your regime into one of the most popular sports you are going to have an impact on society and on football fans particularly if your those
Teams are successful such as bologna not only internally but externally but also winning those two World Cups so uh that is quite important again Chris mentioned uh the rubiales uh Affair now what we’re seeing there in Spain is not just related to Rubi Alis and his actions but
Is also linked to the very strong Spanish feminist movement uh that country has and they have been campaigning for many many decades there are still significant issues which the actions of rubiales has brought to the fall but it has further politicized the issue of equity and equality for Women Within uh Spanish
Society and has given more Credence to the Spanish feminist movement and the rubiales is now a vehicle to actually try and break down more barriers and remove obstacles to Greater equity and equality and that has happened because Spanish footballers Spanish female footballers have been prepared to take a
Stand and as Chris quite rightly says you can never uh not mix football and politics and as we said in uh the previous episode we saw how political football got in the uh in in in Great Britain particularly in ter terms of the first world war and issues around the
Recruitment of footballers uh to fighting uh in in the first world war so Chris is absolutely right you either have to be naive or quite stupid not to um realize that there is a significant explicit link between football and um and politics and just two more examples
It’s you know the wearing of rainbow armbands and the issue isues that have been created with FIFA around that as well and also the issues around the Qatar World Cup and the Saudi pro league at the moment yeah yeah if I could add some more to that
Actually you could add taking of the knee which seems to upset certain countries and he former stent block a lot more than others and also um the wearing of the poppy in the UK can be divisive um especially for um you know Irish players which it has been in in
The past because obviously there’s a history um the British Army in in Ireland isn’t great so um yeah I mean it’s it’s it’s a topic that’s going to um kind of uh you know run and run really I think but um like you I I was quite really surprised by the rubis
Thing because I lived in Spain and I’ve seen how much progress they’ve made I think nearly half if not more than half of of Spanish MPS are women now and given where they were coming from in the Franco era there you know very very traditional view of women um and women’s
Place I should say to where they are now um I just thought it was so retrograde in terms of like you know I would really didn’t expect that but it’s it’s in many ways it’s good to see that finally the you know he has gone so to speak and um
And there hopefully lessons will be learned and attitudes will change yeah precisely so we’re gonna GNA probably talk more about this the roots of this behavior from Ruby Alis I think in some sense it’s associated with uh what we’ seen in in during Franco regime right
Like um the the predominance of the male over over over the the women um the idea of controlling their bodies I think is is quite quite uh impactful um Chris I think you could also bring a lot of other examples to highlight this uh relationship between football and politics I was just
Reminding the the example of Inter Milan which is called AB ambrosiana right because the the word inter was not very welcome because of the international communist so definitely there are more examples and um we in right now we just recom I I highly recommend your book for the
Viewers because they will find other examples there for sure uh but let’s let’s jump into the second question because your book covers acts of resistance against regimes right uh in different context uh and you bring the existence of spies Rebels partisans and and activists uh so I’m very curious to
Understand the motivation behind your decision to approach um your research from this perspective and in addition to that can you tell us uh the most captivating discoveries that you made uh and you wrote in your book and how these acts of defiance impact impacted the respective Brothers social political
Landscapes of of of the that you yeah I just thought I’d give like a counter perspective really to the current you know the narrative especially a lot of modern football culture is right leing um especially much of Italy and Spain uh Eastern Europe um I wanted to like
Present the converse story um especially around extreme events like like the wars um so with Italian partisans Greek partisans uh and also sort of football under dictators the um because basically the um I think in terms of like if you think about a dictatorship luckily enough never to
Have lived under one um uh but it’s obviously a very strong act to actually defy it any in any small way even just protesting quite often um so when you’ve got actually people you know doing Mass acts it’s it’s it’s it’s quite quite impressive I think my favorite story is
The one I kind of alluded to earlier which is the um kind of towards the end of Salasar I think he was actually in a coma at the time or just had a stroke or something but his his his um stand in Cartana was in charge um 1969 very sort
Of like feal part of uh Portuguese history and just towards the end of the um Salazar dictatorship obviously you know the leading clubs in are Benfica Etc and like I said there’s a lot of their players came from the African colonies now the African colonies is fighting Portugal at this time for
Independence um so we think about Angola mosambique and police like this now if you were a student in Portugal at this time um you um and you sort of you know failed at your exams or anything like that you could get sent out to fight in
The colonial wars a little bit I guess like you know in Vietnam and the American sort of experience um so a lot of young guys were going off to fight in Africa for causing n believe in because they’ve been sort of like kind of forced to so the um you have this situation
Where the leading kind of one of the leading clubs is um academica de coin which is very much linked to the world’s well Europe’s oldest university one of the oldest universities I should say um and um I think bologna is the oldest in Europe but kinra is certainly out there
As one of them and it’s at this point it was amateur so you know if you were a student you’d often play for the University side um the interestingly so there while this is going on there are some student protests around the campus but at the same time they had an
Incredible um Portuguese cup run they went all to the final so it they what they do in the final is is quite bold they they also briefed Benfica their opponents on what they were going to do um and they said they they lots of tens of thousands of students came down from
Kinra to to Lisbon which is not that far but they um to the study of jur which is also a Celtic one the European Cup so people might recognize it’s kind of big kind of open concrete bowl with some Woodland behind it um it’s a big a big
Event in Portugal the uh the Portuguese cut final so the all the eyes and the media would be on it but you know as the police they couldn’t really sort of like um Marshal these tens of thousands of students that are descending on jamore or the capital so they kind of just
Switched off the uh the television broadcast a lot of the High brasted um you know top brass didn’t go from the the government um and um there was protests throughout the game and when the academic decoin players came on the pitch they came wearing their gowns and
It was like they walked on very slowly as if they were pull bears at a funeral and they’re kind of just kind of emphasizing the death of like Portugal’s freedom and all this sort of thing so um they take an early lead which is fascinating so imagine if they’d won it
But they didn’t um I think um Benfica equalized and then El sebu himself scored the winner an extra time but they celebrated Benfica were good enough to celebrate with academica atra um you know congratulate them they sort of understood why they were doing these things now this kind
Of was a big moment because it gave the public confidence that they could stand up to the regime which something that hither to hadn’t really been challenged um so there’s two instance one the coin BR protests against you know at the campus when theyd actually sort sealed
Themselves off and then just one year after all the student events in 1968 so they’re gaining this confidence anyway students young people finding their voice and then this cup final that kind of emphasizes it so the regime kind of weakens Sal himself dies his kind of um standings aren’t anywhere near as you
Know well he wasn’t really sort of he was more sort of technocratic leader if you sort of learned more about him he’s not like this carmatic ones that the dictators in Europe at that time or before and um the reg regime falls in the sort of pretty much bloodless um
Revolution the Carnation revolution of 25th of April 1974 and the guy who I interviewed who wrote a film called FAL the Kish which football with a cuse um these are he wrote a film about this or made a film about this um this team and that sort
Run to the fa the Portuguese FA Cup Final and um he’s he attributed to to giving the you know you know Portuguese public confidence to do that so I think that’s the first time that story really had appeared in English before um another one that has you know Greek
Partisan story has never really been told in English before the Italians have been a little bit um I think you know Italy as a first I had to put as the first chapter I think a lot of people are familiar with the melini story less so with the partisan story but there’s
At least five stadiums in in Italy that are named after people who died as partisans um after Italy changed s in 194 three um then I mean it’s particularly tragic story is Carlo castellani who was the top scorer for empol empol is just about 40 kilometers
West of Florence um he was their leading scorer at that point um the stadium now is is named after him um but is he’s his father was accused of being active in the sort of resistance and the Italian collaborative police and the Nazi Germany kind of for in cot at this point
In Northern Italy and they went around to kind of find his father he wasn’t there so Carlo himself said offered himself to go to the police station to answer some questions and um rather than he never came back he thought he just be gone an hour I’ll come back uh he wasn’t
He was he was taken off to a notorious um death camp called um a work death Work Camp which led to a lot of people’s death K Mount housing and um so the stadium is named after him now um but the other story that I found particularly interesting especially
Within modern context of how um of tells a little bit about Croatia and the way is is um is haiduk split so haiduk um means Bandit H they were founded in 19 I remember the early part of the the 20th century by students um came quite a you
Know famous club in Split um and obviously going into World War II um that part of the Balkans gets occupied or taken over by first Italians I think it was in Croatia um and then kind of this and then Nazi Germany uh after the Italians kind of kind of
Pretty much fail same they failed in Greece and Albania various other places but the um um so they take up German resources having to go down there um but they also kind of put this puppet uh local sympathizers in called theas regime um now split uh kind of um rather
Than becoming part of this s r they were offered to be part of um you know in the Italian League while they were occupied by Italy theyum said no thanks and they they disbanded um but they reformed on the aisle of Vis which is like a small
Island of Croatia and they after Italy’s kind of starts um getting taken by the Allies in the 4 is they start playing matches in places like Bary against British clubs which have England Internationals playing amongst their team um and they do a little tour of the Mediterranean sort of raising awareness
Of of particularly for Tito who who ends up becoming the the you know the communist leader of what is you know Yugoslavia after World War I so um so they and then they play just before that you know while they’re in the Nazis are in Retreat and the usasa in Retreat um
And it’s I think they’re only about 10 kilometers from the front line or whatever they play they had match at split against again and other British Army 11 I think it’s Boxing Day 1944 or something like that so it’s quite near the end of the war and but obviously
Football is a big part of Cora St Yugoslavia at that point kind of rediscovering itself and um helped set up the following regime that comes in um you know so they they are a Communist Regime because it’s the first time they fly the new ug flag with a red star in
It at one of these matches but um they weren’t as close to Moscow as a lot of other you know what becomes communist block countries now what I find interesting about that is I put that out there um I did a blog post and I put it
Out saying these are 11 clubs that to change the the course of football history and another reason for that is because they um introduced used Ultra culture from Brazil actually in the 1950s apparently they went a lot of them went to Yugoslavia split fans for the
1950 World Cup saw how um the torsos were behaving and they decided let’s have some of that atmosphere let’s create some songs some TF some other stuff um and they brought that back and so this is where Ultra culture in Europe starts really um and so they’re a really
Significant Club I put this out there and I didn’t realize until this point that I got a lot of feedback from Croatia saying will you realize that now you know one prevailing views anyway among certain Ultra groups in Croatia is that they don’t like that story about
The hideuk split in 1940s they’re more um to the right should we say so um I was really surprised to learn that and it’s a shame in many ways because Croatia should be as a latest member of the European Union um and shenen should be you know Progressive and um you know
So it’s a bit bit of a shame to sort of hear that that that that Viewpoint prevails if it’s true so there we are that’s kind of um that’s right those are some of the stories that I thought were particularly interesting from the book that um that that um you know they
Wanted to explore that’s fascinating uh Alex uh any any thoughts on yes um picking up again on on the point uh uh Chris just made about the British army representative teams um following uh the advance of the Allied Forces through Yugoslavia through um Italy uh these matches were quite
Significant because what it meant was that just behind the front lines these football matches will bring in not only a form of normality to the populace they’re able to watch football matches but really from the populist uh perspective in effect this is uh an act of defiance or resistance that they are
Going to watch the British army play a local team some of which would have been made up of partisans or or or other people uh who had actively uh been campaigning against uh the fascist regimes and I think this is key because as a tool these representative matches actually were getting the
Populace on side with a different type of political regim you know getting them to sort of recognize that democracy is on its way in whichever form that actually comes and actually undermining any possible um uh attempt by the regime to sort of go underground and then come back up again
It’s part of that overall strategy and in one of the matches we see a joint Lazio Roma team take on a British Army team and we have a Blog article uh about that uh that that is based on one of the players um who who participated on the
British army side and but also it’s the type of players and managers that were involved in these British Army teams one of these uh touring teams was led by Matt Busby who would later become one of the most famous managers we have the Busby Bays we have the Munich air
Disaster and the resurrection through the 1968 European Cup victory against Benfica and bizarrely Matt Busby met Jimmy Murphy on this tour Jimmy Murphy was actually doing a lot of fighting and was taken away from the fighting to actually be part of this touring Squad and so hence
We see one of the greatest managerial Partnerships that there’s ever been created through this I would say this was a very political um footballing uh activity so Chris is quite right to highlight the importance of these matches and they had importance from a a multi-lens perspective yeah
Just to add to that there’s two other managers that kind of come together during the war as well which is egri herbstein and belar Goodman and herbstein for those not familiar with him he uh was died with the Grande Torino in 1949 in supero air disaster he
Was their coach um but he survived the Holocaust of Budapest as a Jewish manager um and B Goodman who went on to create that great benica side s Sero uh win the European Cup twice and then when they let him go um allegedly cursed them and Benfica have never won a European to
Trophy any description since so um they came together trying to escape u in Budapest and they did successfully unfortunately ended in tragedy for herbstein not not that long after I think Bella Goodman story is quite significant Not only was he a major you know coach of very high standing he
Escaped the POG GRS uh that were uh going through Eastern Europe in the 20s and 30s but he then he then survived the Holocaust he was in a concentration camp so if you ever want to read a good story about Bella Goodman then David bover’s
Book uh is a very significant book uh to read so again I think Chris is is right to highlight those two individuals again that’s where we see a different type of politicization of football yeah I think um I will add one very particular um personality in Portuguese football probably Chris have
Cross um in his studies candido de Oliva he was a former coach of sporting and he was a spy for for the for the British and to to organize a resistance in Portugal against the Nazis he was sent to the Taha fall um camp in in Africa he came
Back later to Portugal he coached sporting to a successful season and he died covering the World Cup in Sweden I’m not correct and if you go nowadays to sporting club Museum you’re going to have uh little bit of the the the history of Kiva which if I’m not wrong chis you can
Correct me he the Portuguese cup is named after him yeah I think it’s their the equivalent of the charity Shield which where the super cup yes yeah and listen to you chis uh the example that you gave about academica de coimbra was particularly curious because it happened at the jamore stadium right
The store that was built by Salazar at the beginning of his regime as an iconic uh site it’s part of that idea of Salazar to to make Portugal important in the international context right so was very contradictory at the same candid do weird he he appears in
Both my books um because he was like he’s so important to the Portuguese story Football story because he was part of the casapia team that kind of democratized the game took it again with like going back to what I was saying at the beginning where it’s like it was the
Upper class game in Portugal again but the casapia which was had its roots in a um you know in a what’s the word I’m looking orphanage um you know yeah kid I mean his parents are died when he was young and he was taken in by the school
Uh and it was a charitable organization it helped democratize the game and they they won the very first lisban championship unbeaten bit like Preston North End in their first season and he was part of that and you know I think went on to Benfica coach Portugal the
The Olympics so there’s like you know he was a really interesting character and I think that um you know we need to you know you know celebrate um characters like this who have perhaps been lost to the midst of time because they kind of were around before the mass media era
You know yeah precisely well again fascinating stories U you can you can get more about it U by reading Chris Chris book so please order them and Amazon right I think uh we’re going to we’re going to make the link available thank you uh so Chris uh let’s go into the third question
Because I think this one is very uh important at the same time polemical because it involves different uh perspectives on on on History also how how we also do history right so normally for the general public the stories that are written history books are often synonymous of with through right what is
Written the history books we conceive as true but even historians are aware that uh the communication of the past is influenced by poor relationships and um we are successful them for Cong in congruence and fallaces in my in my doctoral research I en covery fell such as the Franco as
Real Madrid supporter um something that there’s no proof about it um document prove at least uh or that elabo did not play abroad because there was an order from Salazar preventing him to join uh inter Midland which was in fact um a ban from the Italian um Federation that only wanted
Nationals to play in Italy at that time that was literally the time that block the the the transfer from from elabo from Ben from Ben to interm um so could you share if you encounter any football myths uh while exploring the relationship between fascist regimes and football yeah I mean
I opened the whole book with the biggest myth of them all really was the death match of keev in 1942 which um those whove seen Escape to Victory uh the um the match reaching um LA and uh who else is in that Bobby Moore Sylvester Stallone various other people um that’s
Based on this story so basically the the premise of the esape to Victory is that they they play the nais they meant to lose um uh and then they’re going to escape in into the sort of like Paris sewer Network and and run away um what
It’s based on is a a real match or series of matches rather um in ke that which was occupied by the Nazis in 1940 um during World War Two And basically what happened is um there was a series of matches between you know um local sides within K and that included
Uh German side from their L faffer which is the Air Force and they were called Flack health so the Flack 11 the Flack is what you shoot up in the air to not air aircrafts down um and there was various other teams and one of them was
Called FC start which was from a bakery and it was um it was um uh featured various players from uh D and Loca mativa who were the sort of like the big local uh football clubs bear in mind that they would have been very malnourished and worked very hard at
This point as locals um not did some terrible things as as everyone knows in Ukraine um so basically there was this match of this league and there was a particular rematch of one match uh that took place and um on the 9th of August I believe it was in
1942 um and it was a rematch effectively of another game so there’s various rumors about what happened whether they would you know the ref was lenient and pro the the German side um and also whether or not the um FL elf players I’m sorry the start players the the local ukrainians were
Were kind of bullied into saying you know you must lose either which way they win 5-3 um now what happens after that is that four of the 11 FC St players um are arrested and and die in detention or executed um in the following weeks when the Soviets retake Ukraine after World
War II um or so 19 44 45 whenever it was they they took Ukraine back into the Soviet Union they propagate this sort of myth that the whole team was executed because they’ beaten the Nazis and that was like the myth that prevailed and I think that was probably still around um
You know kind of for a while in fact some people still believe it and um the um there’s some uh there’s a great book out there uh on it actually which the name of the author escapes me unfortunately called them um if you honor of KV or something like that
Either Which Way um there’s there’s statutes to those four players in keev and as a as a story even before the Ukrainian and Russia War um it became an issue um a political issue during you know just the point Euro 2012 wasn’t it the Ukraine Co co-hosted with Poland um
And I think before that there was a drama Russian dramatization of that event um and Ukraine ukrainians didn’t come out pretty well as part so there was you know that that created a diplomatic F between those two countries even before actual you know um real animosity animosity sort of kicked off
So the um you know it’s been a very interesting topic political topic and it’s all around the football match and it’s all been pretty much you know the myth around it has been accelerated by the experience of what happened to four of the 11 players afterwards so there’s
One of the sort of myths the other one I want to address is is the Franco one that you you’ve alluded to as well interested to hear about your research on that but as I I mentioned before people often you know Alec Ferguson I think it was himself um at one point
Said referred to Real Madrid as Fran Co Club um the um I think that’s when they were trying to caught Cristiano Ronaldo to sign for Real Madrid so um that kind of riled the the Spanish press somewhat somewhat and they were going oh we remember that he’s a a labor party
Member um now the thing is with that is you have to look at real Madrid in the whole context of its entire history so let’s look deal with Real Madrid first then we’ll deal with Franco so first Madrid Football Club again like every other um you know Club in that’s formed
In early any kind of football in Spain was formed by gentlemen so I think they’d had an education in England um um they um you know they get the real title from f the 13th I mentioned before that 1920 I think that is they become Real
Madrid and during the 19th so they you know they’re kind of establishment Club I suppose they’re not even that they are part of the kind of big three at that point they’re a Founder member of La Liga uh of course and and when I say the big three at that point obviously
Barcelona is the other one and Athletic Club the bill B the other the one the other three and neither of them have been relegated from La Liga since its foundation in 1929 1931 the second Spanish Republic comes along they kind of throw out the old regime so the the Catholic Church the
The land owners the you know there you know there’s going to be far more autonomy for the regions the Bas country the cadan uh the Goos there’s going to be lots more um Independence uh a lot more freedom for women equal opportunity all those sort things so they they start going about
And the person that declares the um the the second Republic and the outside the um the post office which is now the a the town hall of Madrid um in um PL Belles which is where Real Madrid celebrate their Cup wins in Madrid his name is Rafael Sanchez Gera he is the um
Soon to be president of of of of back to being Madrid Football Club or Club to football it’s not um they dropped the raal bit because you know they’re not they’re not into royalty anymore this is a republic um he’s still around in 1936 when the um when the war breaks out um
And if anything there sort of Communists on the board at this point um the stadio shadin which was their Stadium at the time a lot of it’s dismantled to take part in The Siege uh to defend Madrid from Franco’s forces who are trying to besiege Madrid expected it to fool very
Quickly and didn’t three years later they’re still trying to Pummel it so it’s um you know it’s kind of in Ruins at the end of the the war um and what happens after the war is that um La Liga starts again all the players are reintegrated uh into the system um
Atletico um Madrid become part Atletico Avon they Mar um merge with the Air Force team they win a bunch of leagues Valencia wins three titles in the 40s Barca win a couple of titles there back from their kind of Foreign Tour um Real Madrid as they are now back being
Are being rebuilt at this point by Santiago bar Bale who’s the guy who the stadiums named after he was a nationalist um he had lost the the presidential bid um campaign to sanche Gera when they were you know previous time he had been a striker for in the
20s um so he rebuilds the club so they didn’t actually win anything to the mid-50s and that coincides with the rise of European football the rise of Television international travel all those sort things they’re in the right place right time really had Grande Torino been still go in you know they
May well have been the prominant team of the of the 50s so you know there’s kind of um um he sees the benefit of this you know Spanish andador they know the the embassy abroad effectively um soft power a time when Spain is trying to CAU the
World it’s isolated because it’s one of the sort of was on the losing side effectively it didn’t get involved in World War II but it was still aligned with them so you still countries that have a fascist stship like Argent um Spain like Portugal like um Argentina
With um unadon uh at that point they’re kind of isolated from International Community a little bit um they’re trying to CAU the Americans the Americans see the value of Spain uh for the Cold War you know to put bases and things like that Spain opens up to the world with
Tourism start building the you know wonderful little fishing villages like Benny dorm get sort of destroyed by concrete buildings so um you know the international travel start so this time is kind of Spain comes out of itself internationalizes really people get to know it um and yes there’s a like I said
A fan Heist on every board at this point so football is inherently political but was he a real Madrid fan um I think he saw the value of what Madrid was doing for Spain um and certainly you know the being from Madrid it helped if it been
Valenia or someone like that would would they’ have been that interested would frankco been that interested in the provincial Club um being so successful but there’s I mean I covered this in the chapter there’s a lot of you know talks from local researchers um we have to
Take a really clo nuanced approach to the way that football was run in those days as I mentioned there was a presence on every board um and yes you know Catalan was banned some places but at the same time um some of the you know the um Publications are coming out in
Catalan and and and Bas in the 1970s you know some of the club fanzines and things like that so it’s um it’s um yeah I think you have to sort of like mythbust to a certain extent to um to the Spanish game yeah uh I think there there lot to talk about
This uh uh regime right because it literally involves the the two most popular clubs in the world right now right Barcelona and Real and I think that adds to to the idea of of myths that we we normally see in in football history studies um just pointing out
Very quickly normally people um believes that Barcelona always always was a sight of resistance right and uh we we we know that that’s not true uh Barcelona was uh as you mentioned Grace Franco implemented the FC structure as well in in in football clubs and nominated the presence of every single club actually
That was made by the sports uh uh minister right at that time but uh Barcelona was we can we can say that Barcelona had more members linked to Franco regime than Real Madrid or any other club in in in Spain of course this doesn’t look good with the with the
Currently Narrative of of Barcelona U but that was the true right we also need to acknowledge that those those members were in favor of Franco regime and um and um and we also saw in other clubs that happening but Real Madrid in in its history particularly in in the
The Spanish Civil War uh had one of the presidents Orga the colon Ora was affiliated with the Soviet Union um the party in Moscow and he was later uh killed by Franco troops when he was trying to escape um Sanchez G was very interesting um a man as you mentioned
Because he was a republican but was he was a Conservative Republican and he was even um dismissed when the front popular took control of the club at the beginning of the the Spanish Civil War one of my findings uh Chris and I think that was kind of relevant in U to your
Point of bernabel as a nationalist uh I would say that bernabel was a monarchist rather than a nationalist um because he he I I was glad to have the chance to interview um of the the member number 250 of Real Madrid um he is currently a journalist
There in Spain and um his father was the agent of puskus and and uh and he he was always with bernabel and when he was a kid he always he remembers moments in which bernabel was cursing Franco and ramundo saporta was his right hand um and also so there
Was another man I think was the another vice president I don’t remember I think I don’t remember his name exactly it’s in my dissertation but he was like making fun of bernabel being pissed off because of Franco um so bernabel was always in contact with the mon the Royal
Monarchy when when they were abroad in Switzerland um I I would say from from my findings that he was more a monarchist that hated Franco but literally saw the the the benefits of you know fulfilling the the the Norms of the Regime and uh there is a very famous quote I’m sure you you you read that from um suppor saying that Real Madrid has always been a political uh club uh football club uh in in in the in the when there was a monarchy they followed the monarchy then cames the Spanish War
They they follow the rules of the the front popular and and when Franco uh arrived in they follow Franco and and after with the 75 right they also now a club that respects the the monarchy regime so it’s it’s I think there are so many insights and and history I would
Say that still being written in Spain oh yeah there’s so many misconceptions that I think uh what you pointed out was was correct I think with the internationalization of the sport I’ve you know I I when I lived in did my dissertation so uh late 90s um Bara
Didn’t have a sponsor on this year and so now I just see it as a commercial rivalry rather than a political one because it’s so International now the players are from all over the world the fan group bases are from all over the world and it probably means you know
Something to a lot of people the you know the center versus the catalans all that sort of thing the traditional narrative that maybe something to some of those people and obviously if you’re a b fan you probably do want to win that but um yeah now I just see it more as a
As a commercial thing now they’re looking Beyond Spain they’re looking to sort of you know Asian markets and Middle Eastern markets and things like that yeah Alex I I agree with Chris uh you have to be extremely nuanced when it comes to the Real Madrid uh Barcelona rivalry
Uh Sid low the the um Guardian journalist has written a fantastic book called Fear and Loathing in La Liga where he highlights this and I I I attended a talk by um Sid low uh prior to to coid um where we were looking at um the Spanish Civil War and and football
And Sid was in effect making a point that a lot of the audience weren’t expecting he said you cannot see Real Madrid as the fascist club and um Barcelona as a Republican Club it doesn’t work like that there are you know there are fans on both sides that
Have political views that are not aligned to how Barcelona and Real Madrid are being portrayed politically and it’s always been the case yeah even in the even in the early years post the Civil War it was it you you couldn’t just support a a club because of your political affiliation some people may
Have done but that was not not the case yeah and so you have to be extremely careful and I’m with Chris now yeah these are two multinational uh uh commercial organizations now yeah they their tentacles reach all over the world but coming back to the Spanish Civil War
What I thought was quite interesting on the Republican side of things was that you know other myths that you know all the footballers were on the front line and so on that wasn’t the case as as Chris alluded to we had a representative Barcelona team um managed by their Irish
Manager o’ Donal um who was um that was touring the United States and ended up playing in Mexico for a number of years to raise monies yeah we have a bar representative team that you know went behind um you know went over towards the Soviet Union as well played a number of
Games around Europe again to highlight the cause and so on so footballers were being used in many different ways uh to to uh further the the the Republican cause so you have to be very careful how particularly with the Spanish Civil War how you sort of place football within
That yeah yeah it’s it’s I think it’s very complicated but at the same time super fascinating right like we could talk for hours about about this topic questions left um for the sake of respecting your times uh I’m going to jump into that I think that’s also going to generate a
Lot of of debates so Chris uh there’s a French philosopher called Paul heare that pointed out the misleading deeply rooted belief that only the future is in the in the terminated and open while the pass is determinate and and closed from your perspective uh what is the currently practical value in
Understanding the utilization of football by fascist regimes in the past and do you believe football club should be transparent acknowledging these historical ties with authoritarian regimes and in your opinion what might prompt football clubs to obscure to marginalize this hisorical connections I think it’s always I mean I
Think if everyone knew uh um you know these basics of of History I think we’d all understand and various traits when they reemerge and we could probably make better policy towards countering numbers it’s like what we’re seeing at the minute is um especially with the rise of
The right wing in Europe it’s it’s always worth looking what’s happening in Germany so Germany has been I think very good as a country of addressing its past in terms of how it teaches its children about its past uh it’s you know this is within living memory as well let’s not
Forget this is a debate that we have in in certain certain extent in Britain but nowhere near addressed colonialism and things like that um you know we have people talking about slave trade and we have things discussions around what should and shouldn’t be returned from museums here and things like that but
It’s nowhere near the extent of Germany’s fairly comprehensive buil into the educational system and and you see that in their clubs as well so um you know there’s there’s a lot of Education that goes around um you know uh for fans um in terms of like countering sort of
Far-right activism within within the stadium um and bands I think I personally I’d like think every Club who have had something in the past to um discuss should should say how hold their hands up and say look this happened it was of the time um for example St poy as
You know is they play at the Millan tour very famous probably the original um kind of leftwing football club so to speak they um their their pre previous name of the mill tour was I can’t remember exactly but he had been a member of that’s it um had been part of
The um uh you know member of I should say the the na party and they um and that was still lingering on as its name until the 90s and they just decided to change it and I think that’s one good example of when that should probably
Occur um I think the fa in England has been very good about admitting it was wrong about the uh the 50-year ban for example or at least talking about it and funding women’s football to the point where um England women are now European Champions and reach the World Cup final with an
Unstrengthened in the past at least um you know acknowledge that I think and and find ways to move on and and maybe even you know compensate for those issues that’s that’s interesting Alex uh yeah picking up on on what what crit said um really I think there should be more
Direction and Leadership from uh the the footballing bodies uh FIFA and we’ll use the European example UEFA and I point to the um Qatar World Cup in terms of Didier Des could have made history by becoming only the second manager to um win two World Cups the only other
Manager to do that was poo of Italy 34 and 38 but what we see is that FIFA UEFA and the Italian fa are burying the fact that this was a a historical uh issue and if if the schp had had done it they would have just concentrated on Des
They wouldn’t have used Des being a two-time winner to actually make points about um fascism a and football in in my view so if we are going to get a c change in football club’s uh behavior and acknowledgement of what’s gone on in the past I think that there needs to be
Some form of action uh from uh the uh the governing bodies because only through the governing bodies actually taking a proactive approach and really you you saw how um FIFA and its leadership backed away from using the World Cup to make some certain uh statements at the
Qatar World Cup you know Infantino some of the comments he came out with it was it was embarrassing really so and if you’re not getting the leadership from the governing bodies both at you know National continental and international level how are a lot of teams going to
Take the lead as as Chris said there are you know I think in Germany in particular there are a number of football clubs and I think IR track Frankfurt are another uh there’s a number of Clubs who use their museums to actually deal with the Holocaust and other issues and they do
It uh um fantastically well but there are a lot of football clubs uh throughout Europe uh and elsewhere that um will not address the issue and if they don’t address the issue it’s going to be there with their fans and as we know in a lot of countries fans will be
Aligned to a club because of their political affiliations and support yeah that’s that’s that’s I think a really key Point uh Alex uh particularly because and when Chris mentioned s PA we know that that club is driven by the the leftwing oriented political affiliation of of a
Minority uh of around 1,000 fans I can say that because I was doing research there as well and uh that was very by them it’s a minority but the majority also follows uh in a certain way but but I think the the main difference and this
Is also a question that I would like to to extend to chis and Alex um and because chis mentioned fa uh the 50-year band uh women’s football um but uh we also been seen C PA ver Breman frankfur many clubs um many football fan projects literally digging into the history of
The clubs to to bring that to light um um in in a sense that they don’t want that to repeat they don’t want authoritarian regimes coming back uh in place in Germany I think uh one of my conclusions my dissertation was the fact that Germany German Society lives
Through a different um temporal regime or a new cultural memory uh in which the past the present and the future are not separated they’re not um they’re all at the same time uh together okay you cannot plan the future without accessing the past and this band that you
Mentioned Chris um that FAA is now acknowledging I wonder and this is a question I wonder if this is because it’s impossible to neglect because we have women that we see every day and uh we need to take in stance um but why not the fa or or other like UK Federation do
Not acknowledge the historical cleavage derived from uh like um the domestic or internal Wars between the UK the Ireland as you were talking last episode uh Alex so is is a temporal um kind of element I think with the women’s game certainly it’s recent success ofv the lionesses has helped um open the
Debate around uh plus there’s a whole lot of um study going on anyway in this space the National Football Museum and Manchester’s been very good about trying to Champion the women’s game uh the history of it which a lot of people don’t know don’t realize things like the
Dick Cur ladies which are uh that um Factory side that was getting 50,000 plus fans or Manchester um Corinthians I think they were called um the um uh team in the sort of 50s and 60s um so there’s a lot of lot to be sort of um rediscovered about women’s but but it
Wasn’t getting the attention of the fund um you know from before um in terms of like addressing the past I think pretty much apart from Germany every well every European country I’m just trying to think there’s very few European countries that didn’t have any kind of colonial kind of History um you
Know so it’s kind of uh Spain in particular um I think would be one of the other ones and in Spain obviously the post frankist debate has been very much want to sweep it under the carpet the paack of forgetting as it’s known and that’s kind of comeing back to hit
Them now isn’t it because got the whole um you know the rise of the far right there plus there’s whole like loads of debates around you know exclamation of body from the Civil War and things like that even the moving of Franco’s body um and that sort of plays itself out a
Little bit in the Terrace uh because you’ve got clubs are a bit of a lightning bolt to like um Rano but literally in their case because it’s a lightning that means lightning in Spanish um and uh the badas amaras at um Kari which are kind of a left wing fan
Group as well um I think that basically they’ve it’s kind of like when they go to places with a traditional right leaning um then they get some you know some abuse and that that is that is there we’ve seen that in in Spain um recently football in the UK is apart
From probably the sectarian element of Rangers Celtic um within the England of Scotland there isn’t really a political element to football there is occasionally you’ll see like some silly comments by you know fans of certain clubs AED usually Tottenham hsbor or someone else and uh or Brighton and it’s
Like the but other than that and they often kind of condemned very swiftly um other than it’s not really overtly political in this country at all and Alex would be interested if you you agree with me on that one um after this but yeah I think that you know there’s
There’s um in terms of like addressing the past I think that’s something that that definitely everywhere everyone needs to do and I think it’s happening in little pockets here like I said you know in Liverpool we’ve got a a museum towards W their history of involvement in Atlantic slave trade um you know
Bristol they they Ted a statue to someone who was involved in it so it’s like these things are little movements are happening but no one’s you know in terms of like addressing the past I think it’s kind of um you know football will have to play a role in that somehow
But um you know I think that’ll just happen organically really I agree Chris um in the the UK apart from the the this the Scottish perspective uh football clubs are not political uh through their fans uh we’ve seen the odd instance at some football clubs uh maybe in the 1970s uh 80s and
Sometimes in the 90s the extreme farri groups such as the national front such as the British national party and more recently Britain first trying to use uh what could be terms um the some of the football hooligan gangs or the what are now becoming the Casual Ultras uh uh
Trying to use them as a vehicle to attempt to get their political views across but it doesn’t work you know the average you know British football fan is not interested in uh their football club being a vehicle uh for for politics you get the odd example where football clubs
Are politically driven and Clapton Community uh football club is a great example but they have been very explicit and FC United uh as well but um if you are looking at the major you know professional football teams and into the uh semi-professional teams no it’s it it it it’s just not on the
Agenda I think in the 70s and 80s that kind of worked because of the the way the society was and also the football grounds are pretty ropey in those days weren’t they were really awful but now they’re very I mean they are amongst the best in the world they’re very clean um
Um what’s the word can’t remember very I say synthetic experience you know I mean it’s very plastic but it’s like it’s yeah you’re like it would wouldn’t take off I I say this on another podcast recently hasn’t come out yet but I just think if you hear something in the
Stadium in England nowadays you usually self bases itself you know like you either people won’t join in and it will die out or they’ll report that person to a steward so you know we’re seeing less and less of the obnoxiousness thankfully and um you know I mean a lot of other countries
Are learning from the anti- hugan ism stuff that went on in England to to help combat their own problems I think the word you looking for was sterile at times one so yeah and I I think um and Chris touched upon um women in football and but I think this will become highly
Politicized uh and I think it’s going to become highly politicized across the board because where we may have a significant amount of investment in particularly the English game but it’s also we’re also seeing it in the in the Scottish game as well um there are still major issues with uh women’s football uh
Particularly at Elite football we we we we use the words equity and equality uh in women’s football quite a quite a bit now look at the the pay scales look at where the elite women’s teams actually play their home matches there is and also the remuneration aspect of it now you
Know when the English women’s team went to the World Cup they were in dispute with the English FA over their remuneration and bonuses for partaking in the World Cup because FIFA had arranged another remuneration and bonus system the English F in effect was sort of rening on what um the English players thought
They would receive Not only was it the England football team but we had a number of other teams that had issues we obviously Spain but we had uh Jamaica we had Zambia we had a number of teams all in dispute with their federations over issues and I’m the way I am seeing this
And I have been a a chair of a women’s football team in England so I’m quite close to the the women’s game and uh there is an issue over injuries and the type of injuries for female footballers um are are are getting particularly in relation to their knes there’s a lack of research
Into the the the type of physical training that they need to undertake there is also issues uh around the menstrual cycle there are also issues even down to the type of stretching exercise female footballers need to do in relation uh to to male footballers and in particular we are looking at
Footwear which is still not uh on an equitable basis and we had an issue with the England goalkeeper Mary herbs where the Outfield players uh Nike were commercializing their shirts but wouldn’t sell uh a goalkeeper shirt that is uh that was brought to the four big feror in in within England uh
Particularly amongst young female fans that slightly changed you know Nike had to pedal back significantly but they only did so because of all the negative publicity so really I I see that there is going to be significant political battles on equity and equality in the women’s game and thankfully that’s
Brought to the four because of the success of the England women’s football team in the last two seasons they are European Champions finisima champions silver medalists at the World Cup and have won the Arnold Clark cup twice and if they hadn’t had that success would some of these issues have been uh
Brought to the public gaze in the in the way they have also you’ve neglected to mention that the chairman uh the president of the fa um uh was Prince William didn’t go to the uh World Cup and got criticized for that um so it’s been in the uh calendar for very long
Time it could have coincided with a tour or some some other thing you know visit to Australia so um yeah that that um you know was perceived by some as a sort of uh you know lack of support it’s very interesting because I listen to you I can I
Can remember the the struggle of the Brazilian uh women’s team also experience since Brazil also had that band uh for for women to play for a long time uh professional football and um and pretty much is the same scenario um that you guys have been mentioned but one
Thing that caught my attention and that’s going to link to the to the final question is the point that Alex made on the fact that UK football fans are not UK football are not political through their fans uh in general right few few exceptions and uh I’ve been seeing so
Many so many angry comments from Newcastle fans um related to the Saudi regime I think it was yesterday around 100 executions their fans posting on Twitter about 100 executions um um made by by the owner of of of Saudi of Newcastle right because it’s associated with the state um and criticizing this this
Ownership so my question to you chis and and also expecting your comments Alex is um around the if there are any parallels to be drwn between the Strategies employed by traditional Fist regimes and those currently know as non-democratic regimes right Saudi Arabia Qatar uh in their political manipulation
Of football can you establish any parallels between uh the past and the present involving football in this reg yeah I mean I just i’ I’d widen it actually I think that football is incredible soft power for every country so if I think about New Zealand for
Example um you know how aware would be of them it weren’t for their excellent rugby team and all that sort of thing likewise Australia is a massive part of their sort of soft power you know winning things abroad for a country less than 20 million people so that’s kind of
I think that we always have to think that it’s a massive part of any national identity um even in a sort of like flourishing democracies um that everyone wants to do their country to do well um uh on the modern so you talking about sports watching sort of front right um I
Think um I mean it just goes back to the central core is that Sports and politics are intertwined and and they will all was ever th thus and it will always be so as well so um people who aim to seek an advantage you know may
Well do that and obviously a lot of these countries you mentioned are very rich they can afford to um you know purchase football clubs and things like that the question is really the onus isn’t really on either of those um um you know regimes the onus is on people
Like the Premier League and the fa to sort of decide whether or not they want this sort of intervention to be to be happening and who who should be buying their clubs uh the clubs in in in those countries so um yeah that would that would be kind of my take on it
Personally on that that front I’m interesting to hear what Alex says no I’m I’m in agreement with you Chris again it’s you know it’s your governing bodies they they need to set the parameters and it’s interesting that you mentioned uh Newcastle Felipe because we all know that football fans can be a bit
Fickle um when the previous owner Mike Ashley uh was in power Newcastle Soul fans would take every opportunity to remind him of how badly he treated his Sports Direct employees you know and then suddenly you have a new ownership and nothing is said you know it’s you’ve
Got that that you know football fans if it suits them they will they will use political mechanisms and and issues when it doesn’t uh and you you know you’ve highlighted the ownership of New Castle United but in one sense you ‘ve got two significant um uh Nations uh that are
Are making an impact Saudi Arabia and Qatar they are being very astute as to how they are investing in football and why they are investing in football now if you want to make the parallels look at the parallels in Franco Spain and musolin Italy both made significant investment political and
Financial in football and they reaped the benefits of that and again I would say those these are the modern parallels and you know there are a number of political and economic reasons why Saudi Arabia and Qatar in particular are investing in football now if you’re looking at um the economic reasons
Both Nations need to diversify their economies they cannot be just riant on um fossil fuels yeah they’re not infinite so they are broadening their their approach yeah I think so again it’s it’s economic it’s political but it does follow a pattern H if you want to link
It back to the 1930s uh and 1940s with some of the fascist regimes MH yeah know I think I listen to you Alex I can’t quite remember the when Franco um after he got in power he he decides which teams would be formed right like and uh which which BRS would
Be be in charge also there was uh changes in the rules of the game um of the competition in Spain something that we’ve been seen uh with Saudi Arabia in this new transfer window that they have come up with uh to get most players from
All over the board I think uh maybe the question as we also should pitch is um when these governing bodies will stop being dependent on the money from these countries right uh because um money money dictates pretty much every decision that they they have been doing
Um when it’s when it’s not possible to hold the the the the media press pressure like we have been seen uh with gaspro and Russia when the gaspro was the sponsor of WEA champions league and the WEA part ways with kaspro was because the the public sentiment was not
Anymore doable to sustain right like there was a lot of criticism probably the question then is when the criticisms to Saudi Arabia and Qatar will be to that ex extent uh I’m not I’m I’ll let I’ll let Chris inter in a minute but I I’m just not
Convinced that um that will ever occur now I think you know that Saudi Arabia Qatar and other nations are so embedded in the governing bodies now they you know they’ve got Personnel who hold significant positions yeah and you know I I’ll point to two factors in particular the qatal men’s World Cup the
Basically dampening down of you know uh issues such as taking the knee LGBT plus uh uh issues were completely you know pushed aside you know Infantino with his uh quite bizarre comments you know deaden them we then get to the women’s world cup and they can’t wear the rainbow
Armbands you know you’ve you’ve got you know and they so issues that are very important in certain um national uh context and cultures cannot be taken onto the wall stage or if they are they are sort of you know the footballing governing bodies will quickly stamp upon them uh
And we’ve seen the evidence of that and I think one of the most interesting examples is Jordan Henderson the ex Liverpool player who was very vifer in support of lgbtq plus uh issues now is in a very um uh uh fragile uh and sensitive position because he now plays in the
Saudi pro league he plays for one of the teams uh that uh has significant government influence one way or other and what can he say I mean he came out and did an interview with the athletic saying he he felt uh you know that he was being badly treated but you you
Can’t make some statements in one context a few months ago and then not make those com comments again when you’re in another context so that’s quite that’s quite an issue for me yeah I don’t think one can hide behind not knowing about the Saudi regime either or
Any of the other regimes so you know um sort a former ex-professional on on TV saying oh we’re not educated as footballers it’s like well educate yourself likewise fans learn about the world goes back to what I was saying right at the beginning about learning about history and then I mean personally
I mean lapsed Queens part Rangers supporter and the reason I didn’t like I’m kind of back now in the fold so to speak but I I kind of didn’t go for a very long time didn’t like the owner at the and what they were doing um to
Various kind of you know to the club changing the corest rebranding and all that sort of thing and it’s you know it’s the same with any club if you chw you can you know maybe if you if you’re you feel that way about it maybe you just don’t don’t go anymore don’t give
Them any money don’t watch them but like I said I mean I’m sure a lot of Newcastle fans were critic man criticizing Man City a few years ago and now you know that now they probably um don’t mind getting some investment after the Ashley years you know and um so it’s
Question yes fans um players are like just let’s just let just learn about the world and and everything in it yeah I think we can say that the the politics that people normally engage when interest them are avoided uh if football uh is their football passions right are are are in
Between uh I think it depends on the context it depends if favors or or or not them um therefore we can as Alex mentioned we can understand the different and Chris also pointed out the the different behaviors from uh Newcastle fans uh in the past and and now under the new
Ownership um Chris and and Alex I will now give you the word for final considerations uh any any topics any uh points that you want to want to highlight that we were not able in in those five set of questions um now it’s the time uh I will pass the word to Chris
First I think in summary um I we’ve kind of the theme that’s come through it football has always been political sport in general has always been political let look at the Moscow Olympics Beijing Olympics um Berlin Olympics so it’s always been political it always will be
Um and so uh some places more than others I think it does reflect certain elements of society at the time particularly within a masculine context or increasingly as the females the women’s game gets kind of more um you know prominent certainly in that context as societal context wi societal context
As well so um you know there’s there things that we can we can learn about the game and history through studying it and um and this is why I think people I hope people will continue to examine the sport as as close as possible and uh
Before I give the word Alex I will ask where people can find you what’s your Twitter uh you can follow me at outsid right that’s W RIT and that’s on Instagram and Twitter stroke X um predominantly um I’m also got my personal feed on there but which is CMR
Le which is my initials but you’ll find me talking about work and various other things on there so you probably won’t find as much Football chat so outside right is where you’re at for the football amazing amazing make sure everyone follows uh PR PR uh Twitter account the outside
Brighter because there’s a lot of good content and I’ll be restarting the podcast in in October I’ve got some really great guests coming on and we’ll be talking about um you know um Brazilian football as well this this coming series I Shan say any more than
That at the moment that’s great now make sure also to provide the link for the podcast um in the description of this video perfect thanks and there’s loads on outsid right. co.uk okay amazing thanks Chris Alex Final considerations well um it I’m going to plug Chris here
Um it Chris is absolutely right football fans just need to educate themselves and it’s uh it’s reading Chris’s books it’s it’s um uh listening to his outsid right podcast and there’s many others uh who have got really informative uh podcasts and and there’s um lots of good books
Out there now that deal with both the the political and football and War aspect uh uh that we’ve been discussing today so basically don’t pretend that you don’t know there’s plenty out there uh to educate yourself and it’s not all academic at all it it’s written by you
Know fellow football fans and those interested uh from many different perspectives yes I think education has been the word uh today for today’s um talk and um I really really want to appreciate once more more PRI time and Alex time for for being here for uh sharing all this uh deep knowledge about
Football history and also football and Society because they’re very very intertwined and uh and I wish you guys had a had also a blast listen to them uh make sure to follow chis uh outside writer in Twitter and and the football and War Network as well that is uh Chair by Alex
And we are uh football studies Channel on YouTube okay so stay tuned for the last uh episode next week uh in which we we will be talking about Community Based football clubs in the UK so uh stay tuned and don’t miss it thank you very much Chris and Alex and see you next
Time thank you cheers pH